Song of Albion

[dandaman]

I don't know. I've struggled with this Nettles guy. I do like him. But sometimes I think he's really unnecessary to the story. I've even wondered if SRL brought him back just to justify his original presence. I can easily picture the story without him at all. Maybe someone here as a better idea for me.
If Nettles never existed, Lewis would not have gone looking for whats-his-name. But you could write that Lewis went after him anyway. There's no real need for that whole nexus-plexus talk (even though I did like it). And why bring Nettles back? Did he really add anything to the story? What am I missing here?

[Tegid]

dandaman said:

There's no real need for that whole nexus-plexus talk (even though I did like it).

(And it sure led to a cool track on Songs from Albion Vol 1, imho!)

Hmm. What if Nettles weren't in the story? I'm sure it could have been arranged to get Lewis into the Otherworld some other way. But why then should he go there? Why would Simon not simply have become another cold missing-persons case in some file? Did Lewis really have a compelling reason to go searching for him as far as the Otherworld? Okay, he was turning into looney-house material, and eventually some kind of spotlight of suspicion would have fallen on him for the disappearance.

Well, there's the urgency brought on by the unraveling plexus. So that explanation was certainly in order and helpful (and it helps me understand a song, "In This Between," that would have been incomprehensible to me, otherwise -- but that's another matter.) And as an important concept in Celtic thinking, it is right at home here. If this concept had not entered the story, then there is indeed no pressing need for Lewis to go after Simon; just let him become the most evil ruler Albion ever had -- why should anyone in the manifest world care? (This would make for a very short story.)

But did it have to be Nettles? I don't know. Maybe Lewis could have just starting waking up to the things he came across as he was researching for his degree. That's a fairly common plot device. To me, that kind of thing sort of flattens a story, while a supporting character like Nettles helps give it that three-dimensionality that helps separate the really satisfying books and authors I've read from the less expert storytellers and their works.

Was bringing Nettles back in (in books 2 and 3) "just to justify his original presence"? I'm trying to think of anything else I came across in the whole story that wasn't skillfully woven in, to re-emerge later in the trilogy when its right time came. Are there any throw-away characters? Is Susannah? Even wolves and pigs seemed to be placed by masterful design, with their importance made apparent later.

A whole lot of stuff sailed over my head on first reading (and probably still does), that all tied together and became part of a very organic whole by the end. I guess I just want to give the benefit of the doubt to the idea that Nettles was intended to be there from the start, and try to see what Lawhead might be wanting to say to me through him.

dinadan, I'm going to have to think about your Nettles-Ollathir comment. That's something that hasn't shown up on my radar. If you'd like to expound, please do so.

[dandaman]

Well, Lewis was schooled in Celtic stuff so he was no dummy to a lot of what Nettles told him at first. It would have been nice to know how Nettles came across that nexus-plexus info. (Maybe I missed it.) I guess you're right in that the story could probably make do without him, but wouldn't be as good. Perhaps we'll never know. Maybe it's a statement that scientific knowledge doesn't get you far enough - that some sort of faith has to exist to take you further.

[dinadan]

dandaman said:

Well, Lewis was schooled in Celtic stuff so he was no dummy to a lot of what Nettles told him at first. It would have been nice to know how Nettles came across that nexus-plexus info. (Maybe I missed it.) I guess you're right in that the story could probably make do without him, but wouldn't be as good. Perhaps we'll never know. Maybe it's a statement that scientific knowledge doesn't get you far enough - that some sort of faith has to exist to take you further.

But he was a complete dummy. That was why Nettles was important--he had to break through Lewis' 20th century conditioning and show him that there is a real philosophical and theological underpinning for the existence of the Otherworld. Lewis, like any other modern person, simply believed it was all folklore and myth. Nettles had to show him the facts. Not to mention, Lewis doesn't seem to know about a lot of BASIC Celtic concepts, for a Celtic Studies grad student. Nettle's explanation of the Plexus and Nexus was absolutely vital, and is what separates Song of Albion from something like...Molly Cochran&Warren Murphy's "World Without End." There is legitimate philosophy behind Lawhead's Otherworld--it's just been lost in the last thousand years, give or take a century. Nettles is the key link between Lewis and that ancient mode of thought.

***

As to the thing I said about Nettles/Ollathir...well, that was a half-formed random thing. But I'll stick by it. I think what I was trying to get at is that Nettles is the "wisest of the wise" in Oxford, the way Ollathir is in Albion. He, however, has not got the power that Ollathir had. Had he continued instruction with Tegid, and returned to the manifest world, he would've introduced an element of instability that would've defeated the purpose of righting Simon's wrong. Even had he not intended it, he would've been bringing a power that is all but dead in the manifest world back with him, and back to life here. I am reminded of the conversation between Dr. Ransom and Merlin in "That Hideous Strength"--where Merlin tells him that he needs 7 days to go out and reawaken the powers of the earth to do his bidding, and Ransom tells him that even if it were possible, it would be utterly unlawful now. Does that muddle it up more?

[dandaman]

I'm muddled that's for sure, but it isn't your fault, Din. I appreciate your comments on Nettles being able to think beyond the modern thought and see past all that. We need more Nettles in our world!

[laurelin]

Here's a thought. What Lewis did in The Paradise War and The Silver Hand was obviously necessary to stop Simon. Staying there and reigning as king was also necessary, because he had to fulfill the prophecy and eventually to stop Simon (although he didn't know it). So Llew's presence ultimately saves the Endless Knot from unravelling. My reasoning on this is that Llew is a force on the side of good that counterbalances the evil Simon brings into Albion. Nettles says that the Knot continues to unravel after Llew is kinged, but he doesn't consider the possibility that it may simply be because Nettles is there, and that Llew actually belongs at this point. In the end, he has to leave Albion, but not until Simon is destroyed as well. Also, Llew couldn't leave while he was still king, because the land is tied to the kingship. Llew had to die before he could leave Albion. Nettles doesn't realize that Llew isn't finished in Albion, or that he has to die, but his insistence that the knot continues to unravel provides a sense of apprehension about his presence there. I'm going in circles now, but there's a point in there somewhere.

[dinadan]

I get what you're saying. I've always thought the problem of the knot continuing to unravel was presented abiguously. With Nettles' presence, Simon's, the metaphyical archeologists', and Llews', who is to so which presence was the one doing the unravelling.

Your point about Llew being tied to Albion through his kingship is a good, solid line of thinking. My only challenge to it is that, effectively, Llew's kindship stopped when he left Albion for Tir Aflan and broke the geas--which also confirred upon him the doom of death. Breaking a geas always causes death.

[Maidryn]

The Song of Albion Series is a fine jewel. Adding another book would be like slapping a shiney piece of tin on a diamond. No matter where you put it , it wouldn't work.

[Maidryn]

I have to admit I wasn't thrilled about the ending of the Albion Series. When Llew died he shouldn't of ended up back in our world. People were dying in battles throughout the story, it didn't send them back and forth across the "bridge". SRL sets up a criteria for crossing over (ie: the time between times) and then doesn't stick to it. When Llew died he should have gone to the same place anyone else goes when they die. Does this mean when Lewis dies in the "real " world he'll cross back over to Albion? It doesn't work right.

[DanTheMan]

I think because he died in the Otherworld, he can never go back. And I think because he was a willing instrument for the Swift Sure Hand, he was sent back to our world - hopefully, to be a willing instrument there/here.

Ok, I'm done thinking for a little while.

[Margim]

dantheman said:

I think because he died in the Otherworld, he can never go back. And I think because he was a willing instrument for the Swift Sure Hand, he was sent back to our world - hopefully, to be a willing instrument there/here.

I agree. Recently, I was also reflecting on whether Llew would have actually returned of his own will if he hadn't actually died. A wife, a kid on the way, a much lauded and much loved individual. I tend to think that had he survived, he would have stayed on as king and gradually, bit by bit, the knot would again begin to unravel. King or not, he was still a foreigner. One who meant good and was affirmed for doing good, but a foreigner none the less.

His death in a sense might be considered a gift... one that stopped him from eventually destroying everthing he loved, and saving those he loved from the pain that his continued stay might have ultimately brought.

[DanTheMan]

Why is it that SoA is so popular among most Lawhead fans? I think Lawhead's writing ability has technically improved book after book, so the charm must elsewhere. Perhaps it is the Otherworld where people want to go and visit. A world which is more vibrant than our own. A world where honor and loyalty are more important than personal comfort and possessions. Perhaps not. Maybe it is Llew. Is he that wondeful of a guy? What is it about Llew that is so likeable? Maybe it's because he was an ordinary guy that found a way to get himself to see beyond the modern thinking of this world and take a step out on faith. Maybe not because a lot of Lawhead characters do that very thing. Faith is such a strong message in his books.

Well, my thinking is this: It is that he gave his life and actually died for his friends. That kind of faith and love is something we all want to believe still exists in this world. It was a very touching moment in the book. But it makes so much sense that Lewis, who had a hard time believing this Otherworld actually existed, would become Llew, who would sacrifice himself for the friends and for the love he found there. I think we all want to believe that we could find that kind of faith and love in this world.

[Tegid]

This is only a rough summary of more expanded thoughts I sent you in a more jumbled fashion. I may clean and polish this later, but for right now here's this.

It didn't take reaching the end of the trilogy for me to know SoA was an astounding book that I would consider 'great.' That happened shortly after I started The Silver Hand -- certainly by the episode in the Nemeton, if not earlier. By the time I was near the end of that book, I knew it would be on my short list of all-time favorites. Perhaps it had something to do with the point of view; I know that we are presented with a very different Tegid here that we could not have known with only books 1 and 3, and that (in my estimation) greatly enriched the story. But that alone is not enough to account for what grabbed me with this volume. I think that it had more to do with the growth in character and in grace that Llew experienced during this time of his greatest weakness. This was the volume where Lewis became Llew, and all that means. Here, for me, was where the immediate appeal to popularity of the trilogy lay.

But in the long term, when I look back over the whole trilogy, even though I still see that second book as the mountain peak, it is in reflecting on end of the story that gives the whole trilogy its enduring sense of greatness. Those closing few chapters took anything that still seemed like a vignette or loose end and wove the entire work together into a tremendously organic whole, not only in plot, but in purpose. It has been so ... satisfying a conclusion to reflect back upon, in a way that I seldom experience with other books. And I think that your second paragraph does a fine job of encapsulating much that does make it that way.

I'd like to hear more from you and from others about this.

[chrystalized]

What I really like about these books is how, unlike most trilogies, the second book, is more than just a book to tie the first and last together, it is able to stand on it's own. Of all SRL books, I find these the most thought provoking, and they show alot of thought put into them.
Another thing about them is that they are very differnet from any book by any author. I find I can take alot of SRL books and compare them to others books I have read, but SoA has no comparison

[DanTheMan]

I think Chrystalized is right in that there isn't really a comparison. At least, not what I've found. There are some books where normal guys go into a new world and become heroes, such as Thomas Covenant. I don't recommend that series because of the repulsiveness of his character, but they are similar in the simple matter of falling into a new world. In SoA, however, I feel drawn much closer to the characters. The first person narrative certainly helps with that. But I really do like the growth and change in Llew, and how he was willing to love and sacrifice. And I like the ending where it all makes sense to him in the end.

Well, I'm rambling on, I suppose. Maybe we've exhausted this discussion for now. Some time in the future, a group of us will need to reread the series at the same time and discuss the books afresh.