Merlin

[Riothamus]

...And, since she is the arch-rival of Merlin, who self-conciously serves God, it makes sense, from a purely dramatic standpoint, that she know whom she serves.

As to Merlin playing by different rules, I think, especially as the old druidic order faded, that Merlin received a special dispensation and was appointed for a newfound work with Vortigern and his successors. So I think it's not unreasonable to suppose that with that anointing (I use the word figuratively,) came the ability to continue with semi-impugnity in matters which to others, such as the priests that confronted him in Pendragon, would be anathema.

And as to the predestination business. As I've made clear elsewhere, theologically I'm very much the Calvinist; however, I tried to put that by while I read the Cycle. It seems clear to me that Merlin is of the opinion dinadan outlines--he speaks of things being "meant," but only in the sense that it's how things happened to be arrainged. It's certainly not the same sense in which, in LOTR, Bilbo was "meant" to find the Ring--the Higher Power seems to be viewed as somewhat less meddling in the Cycle.

That said, Avalon certainly adds an extra layer to it all. For, if we disregard dinadan's point re: actual statements (for clarity, not out of disrespect,) it's clear that the Summer Realm actually is realized and is actually ruled by a man who is essentially, if not personally, Arthur. So one could, if one were in the reading-in mood, suppose that the Summer Realm as realized in James' rule was in fact the end toward which all was meant to lead. However, that's a very uncertain conclusion.

[But in conclusion, does not a being identified as the Summer Lord come to Merlin in Pendragon? Since it isn't Arthur, it must be either a Christophany or an appearance of the "essential" Summer Lord, as would later be manifested in James. The Christophany idea is very interesting, because it would indicate that the Summer Realm is only to be realized in a future reign of Christ, necessarily a personal reign, so that the books become more pre-millenial in outlook. Just a thought.]

[dinadan]

You know, I had entirely forgotten about that happening in Pendragon. On reflecting upon it, I'm of the opinion that it was not a Christophany, but that he was seeing the Summer Lord as he stood in potentiality of coming to be; not so much an "essence" as you put it, but more of a thing waiting to be moved into the realm of "becoming" by the Prime Mover (sorry to whip out Aristotle, but I couldn't think of how else to phrase it).

[Riothamus]

It's a possibility that hadn't really occured to me before, but it leads to interesting possibilities in one's reading of the series. I used "essence," in part, in order to tie James into the equation, since what seems to have happened with him is a return of Arthur's essence. But your phrasing does seem more apt. (Although I'm interested in a Christological reading as well....)

[angelika]

I too shall apologize for intruding into your discussion as a "newbie" but I have several thoughts and though they may not all be in answer to questions here I thought you may find them interesting...
First of all you should know I am Jewish so the whole Christianity thing may be lost on me at times but I perceived this:

In short, Taliesin comes to realize that the Christian G-d and the powers that he and Hafgan have worshipped as Druid/Bards are one and the same through a sojourn in the Otherworld - I believe ...correct me if I a wrong.
Therefore Merlin is passed down this heritage of believing the One Truth to be the same as the Chrisitian G-d and Hafgan accepts this in the end as well. So what you have is a Chrisitian Druid - moreover a druid that still believes druidic powers that are tied to the One Truth (and the Christian G-d) in some ways. So he maintians both his Bard/Druid ways along side of his Chrisitian beliefs. Hope that makes sense.

Now one thing you all seem to only vaguely touch on here is his time spent with the Bhean Sidhe...I believe that is much more important than is being realized. He lived with people who were very tied to the rhythms and harmonies of nature. They seemed able to draw out the lifeforce of plants and animals and use them for good purposes. This is one thing that Merlin learns that no other Bards or Druids or Christians - or any "normal" peole know.

And as many of you draw here upon your varied knowledge, the scaffolding of what you have learned, what you know, and what you believe - so too did Merlin weave together, if you will, his own form of spirituality and skill. So he may have enduring life through his dedication to the Summer Realm as well as his Fair Folk heritage, but he also has blended the best of all the traditions he was given to become a powerful and knowledgable being.

Laslty, I believe the Summer Realm is more an ideal than anything else, for it seemed to me that SRL often says it has come but then something bad heppens and they say "Ah so it wasn't time yet" kind-of thing. In Grail Arthur believes it has come and Merlin knows full well that the shrine to the grail will be bring about trouble at the very least, yet he lets things take their course. So he sometimes he interferes but sometimes he does not and when he decides to and when he does not does not seem to be explained really. Just my 2 cents.

[twyrch]

Angelika said:

I too shall apologize for intruding into your discussion as a "newbie" but I have several thoughts and though they may not all be in answer to questions here I thought you may find them interesting...

Oh no! Please don't apologize. I think it's great for new members to jump right into the discussions and become active members of the forum.

Kudos to you and Welcome to the forum! ;D

[dgan]

Wow.

Umm...there is simply too many different topics being discussed for me to understand, much less respond. Therefore, let me pick out two items that appear to be recently threaded throughout the....ugh....thread.

The Summer Lord: I do not recall the Summer Lord mentioned within Taliesin's vision? Remember, during Taliesin's time, there was no high king. The first thoughts of the Summer Kingdom did not even speculate that it would be all of Britain. In fact, one got the impression from childhood Merlin that the Summer Kingdom would exist among Elphin's people on the "summerlands" given them by Avallach.

Those rambling statements are meant to conclude that the Summer Lord was an "amendment" to the original vision based on the necessity and opportunity of the time. Therefore, I would not confuse the Summer Lord with the Summer Kingdom, nor would I assume that the Summer Kingdom requires a Summer Lord in its most basic existance. However, the need for leadership is obvious. So, regardless of how you view James' manifestations in Avalon, one must conclude that Merlin saw need for a leader, whether he was the Summer Lord or not.

Merlin, the magician/good guy: This requires the most speculative interpretation of any concept in Pendragon. You could make an argument (as it appears we have) for just about anything. Personally, I read it as if the magic is not supernatural, unless there is an assumed presence of a supernatural being. For example, Merlin feels as if he is covered in angel's wings, or something of the sort. Otherwise, I consider his "magic" the manipulation of nature learned from the hillfolk or Hafgan or whatever.

Morgian's "magic" is a bit more complicated, simply because we rarely get insight into how she conjures her power. However, holding to the same type of interpretation, I assume she has considerable ability in the manipulation of the elements. In her case, though, she must have more influence over the timing and design of supernatural occurances than does Merlin. And that, I suppose, could be the definition of magic which could explain why Morgian is evil and Merlin is good.

I don't really hold to that as the defining line between good and evil in this case, however. <Speaking in a literal God/Satan ideology just for one minute> Any time you have your classic magical battle between "God's soldiers" and "Satan's soldiers", you are immediately in a conundrum because the supernatural expectations are completely opposite. Satan wants Morgian to be more power-hungry, more demanding, more hateful, etc... God would want Merlin, to be more trusting, patient, reverent, etc... That is why I am determined there is a difference between the supernatural magic and the more casual magic. And that is why Merlin is still "good" even though he uses "magic" - because he commands the earth, but is subordinate to God. Morgian would like to command both.

You can spin it other ways and it would be entertaining, but my interpretation is the most realistic, at least to me.

[dinadan]

Really great counters here recently; you know how I love the argument. Unfortunately, this'll have to be another IOU--I promise to get back to front when I get a moment.

[Child of Immanuel]

dgan said:

The Summer Lord: I do not recall the Summer Lord mentioned within Taliesin's vision? Remember, during Taliesin's time, there was no high king. The first thoughts of the Summer Kingdom did not even speculate that it would be all of Britain. In fact, one got the impression from childhood Merlin that the Summer Kingdom would exist among Elphin's people on the "summerlands" given them by Avallach.

There may not have been a Summer Lord, but the vision mentioned kings ("kings will extend their hands in justice rather than reach for the sword" or something like that). Also, I seem to recall one of the books saying that the Summerlands were not the Summer Kingdom (can't recall where, sorry).

[angelika]

Hello all! Thanks for the warm welcome to the forum!

I too remember reading that the Summerlands and the Summer Kingdom were not one and the same - only that Elphin named the area the summerlands in reverence and hope for Taliesin's vision. I think it was in Merlin, but I'd have to go back and check.

[dgan]

I agree it is not stated that the Summer Kingdom would be in the Summerlands. I said I got the impression when reading Merlin's account of his childhood that that was his ambition.

Consider that as well as noting that Taliesin's vision speaks of kings rather than a high king. That's why I view the original vision in a pre-monarchy setting, therefore explaining the exclusion of the later included Summer Lord.

If that makes any sense at all...

[scothia]

I once asked SRL which one of his books was his favorite. This was back during the Celtic Crusades tour, so it had to be about '98 or so. At that time, he told me that Merlin held a special place in his heart because he felt inspired writing it; and indeed it required very little editing. He said the character was so alive to him. I agreed that it is the finest of that series, and maybe of all his (though I admit I haven't gotten to reading every last one of his books yet.) Merlin is also my favorite of all his characters, with the possible exception of Aidan in Byzantium.

[Child of Immanuel]

You actually spoke to him? **faints** just kidding... anyway, did you just talk to him in a book signing line or something?

[dinadan]

There's been a charged levelled that we don't discuss SRL here enough anymore--so I'm going to take up the gauntlet here again with this topic (which is, I think, my favorite).

Merlin is a character that I find fascinating for a whole host of reasons. I mean, he's a great guy, but sometimes he can be quite...unpersonable. I mean, I can see why some other characters dislike him and sometimes distrust him. I think I got that very clearly in Arthur and in Grail, because, with him not being the narrator, it became clear that while his motives are obvious to him, other people are often bewildered by him.

[dgan]

I agree with you of course, about Merlin being somewhat impersonable and bewildering others. However, there could be another reason other narrators seemed to have a different outlook on him than he appeared to have on himself.

I think Merlin was very introspective. Yes, he was all about Britain and Arthur and defeating evil, etc... However, he always plotted his actions inwardly, and then carried out his plans to the world. Therefore, his accounts were always of his thoughts, plans, and actions on those plans. Seemingly very orderly and logical. However, other individual's accounts (especially those close to him) would see the brooding, pondering, non-social individual that Merlin doesn't see.

Also, it seems to me that Merlin was the master manipulator, faking his attitude and demeanor to get the result he wanted. Yet, he respected those he loved and never seemed to want to manipulate them. Arthur, for example, probably frustrated him to no end, because Merlin knew he could probably often change Arthur's mind. Still, he allowed Arthur to make those decisions on his own. In short, Merlin stopped being "fake" around those he loved and trusted, which would come across to his friends as being moody.

[Gwalchmai]

I think too some of the change in perception could very simply be that we hold ourselves in different light than as we appear to be. I mean I know I think of myself as a certain way but others see me differently.

And as far as Arthur goes, he IS the summer lord who leads the summer realm of Britain. So I think that that simple fact encourages Merlin to let him make the final dicisions and to not push so hard on him. I mean he is King for a reason so its only right of him to respect that.