Merlin

[dinadan]

OK, let me see if I can take some of these on.

My guess on the nature of the respective powers of these groups and individuals is not just the use of the power; SRL doesn't seem to be an "ends justify means" kind of guy. Let's assume there are two ultimate sources of power, Divine and Infernal. Let's also assume that there are multiple ways of working with this power--i.e. through Morgian's goetia, the druid's nature-based path, and Merlin's wielding of powers Divine (at least by the end). I'll make the case for this as follows:

First, the druids; remember that not all the druids were willing to make the conversion to Christianity, which is important. Until the coming of the Christian story, the druids operated in a state of quasi-neutrality. Their nature-based magics were filtered through (and made to work by) their dabbling in the Otherworld. From there, they could use both the powers of Good and Evil, depending on intent, the nature of the act, etc. In fact, I'd be willing to saddle any pre-Christian nature magic in this same situation--Lile's herblore and the hill-folk's magic included.

Next is Morgian herself; she got introduced to the magical operations through her mother's herblore, but her instruction from Annubi (which has always given me the impression of being formulaic, goetic, types of magic) gave her the tools to touch the power of the Evil One directly--no trickle-down from the Otherworld Beings.

Merlin--like Morgian--begins by being introduced to magic through this nature-magic. It should also be noted that this nature magic was entirely incompatible with Christianity, although it had to changed to adapt itself to the Truth (which many of the druids were unwilling to do and ended up reverting back to even darker magic--human sacrifice and wicken men and what not). Merlin, though, comes to represent the ultimate blending of this nature-magic tradition with Christianity--and then comes to be able to touch directly the power of the Divine (how else do you explain what happens in Llyonese?).

As to how this squares with Lewis...well, if we want to compare Merlins, I'd say that they square up pretty well. I mean, if we taken Lewis at his word when he said that Merlins magic represented an older and less guilty type of tradition, the Lawhead's Merlin seems to fit that bill. If we also take Lewis at his word that Merlin was born at just the time when his sort of dabbling was not yet evil, but neither was it good for him, Lawhead's Merlin also seems to agree--notice that as he gets older, he relies on magic less and less. It becomes an "emergencies only" thing, rather than a convenient way to unlock a door.

On the other hand, the two Merlins in question are incompatible in other ways. Remember that before Merlin's "fall" and his time in the wild, he was supposed to be the Summer King; Lewis' Merlin is never connected with the post of the Pendragon, only with being the Pendragon's servent in the Order of Logres.

I'm really hoping this topic keeps going, because I'm not done with it--although I do have to stop and go back to my real world work.

Adios!

[dgan]

I see where you get a lot of that theory. You could very well be right. I just don't see it that way.

I did not indend to imply "ends justify the means" philosophy, although I see that's kind of how it sounds. What I meant was that their earthly powers were derived from the same origin. It was the spiritual addition to those "smaller" powers that gave them such strength.

For example, Merlin actually says that his "magic" is just called magic by ignorant or small-minded men. It was not really magic at all, but simply a greater understanding of nature, earth, etc... (This use of this "understanding" is probably what we would call magic by today's standards, but that's just semantics.) The point is that his spiritual gifts, he had little control over. I imagine it was similar with Morgian.

Let me clarify. Merlin stated, for example, that when a name was required, it just came to him. He didn't conjure it up, or even request it. It simply popped into his mind. This is the spiritual power he was provided through his Christianity, and he had only to obey it. It was still his choice to obey, and his choice how to use his earthly powers. Again, I would assume it is the same with Morgian, but obviously it was hell providing her spiritual powers. She did not sell her soul, as she says, but spent her whole life giving herself over to the obedience of her spiritual provider, just like Merlin.

As far as Merlin being the last of the druids, I think he's still alive? Avalon doesn't say he dies, so I would assume he's walking around the hills of England as we speak right now. Longevity makes him the last and I don't read anything else into that. If you are talking about him being the last of the True Bards, however, now you've really opened a can of worms. There are countless ways to consider that.

The key about the druids was that druid-lore itself was the search for spiritual enlightenment. In other words, it is what Taliesin, Merlin, and I suppose even Morgian found in a twisted sort of way. The fact is that the druids were bound by superstition and couldn't grasp the spiritual truth even when they found it, which Hafgan sadly discovered. This is classic SRL. The human spirit, without spiritual direction, will fall somewhere in the middle. Without following God or Satan, the human spirit will follow what little it understands, which leads to superstition and a lack of meaning or usefulness.

I, too, enjoy this playful banter. I read and come to conclusions, and enjoy being challenged in how I came to those conclusions. It helps one learn more about one's self. I don't care at all if I'm right - I just want to discover other ways of thinking about the hidden meanings.

[Riothamus]

What I meant was that their earthly powers were derived from the same origin. It was the spiritual addition to those "smaller" powers that gave them such strength.

Which, from where I sit, doesn't seem too far removed from dinadan's assertion. He says, (and I quote,) "Merlin... comes to represent the ultimate blending of this nature-magic tradition with Christianity--and then comes to be able to touch directly the power of the Divine (how else do you explain what happens in Llyonese?)." The emphasis is different--you emphasise the temporal derivation of their works (nature,) whereas dinadan emphasises the fact that the temporal derivation was not the actual source of their power; nature is a tool. As I understand it, at any rate.

dinadan's talk on druidadic neutrality adds an interesting level to the Cycle. We find Arthur at a time when the forces of magic are being radically realigned. The "safety net" has been removed and a more polarized magical world is coming into being, culminating in Merlin and Morgian as the ultimate representatives of this polarization. Very interesting. And very Lewisian.

As far as Merlin being the last of the druids, I think he's still alive? Avalon doesn't say he dies, so I would assume he's walking around the hills of England as we speak right now. Longevity makes him the last and I don't read anything else into that.

This is exactly the kind of answer I tried to forestall.... I don't mean, "within the world of the Cycle, why was Merlin last?" I mean, in a more general way, why did Lawhead see it as important that Merlin be, not only a druid, but the last druid? It's a philosophic-literary question. (You touch on this later in your post.)

I personally think it has something to do with the points dinadan details. The druids were, pre-Christianity, (I'm speaking within the fictional world of the Cycle,) in a state of semi-neutrality. Once the truth breaks upon them, they must choose God or satan. Again, very Lewisian; it's history "coming to a point." As you point out, they were bound by superstition and couldn't grasp the truth. However, too, their type of magic was no longer valid, and so Merlin must be the last because he represents the last hurrah of Druidism, as well as the transition into Christianity. One could even say that, literarily, he is Britian, awakening out of the old way and into the new.

Just a thought.

[dinadan]

Well, by Heaven! I had no idea that we could think the same thing, Riothamus!

Dear, dear, dear...what is the world coming to?

[dgan]

I guess I don't read SRL as comparative to other fantasy, even if poured from the same cup, so to speak.

Although highly spiritual, SRL stays tied to reality much more closely than others. Even when referring to magical events or magical acts, SRL always holds reference to reality and spirituality. Therefore, I guess I don't look at things (such as druid magic) in the same light as it is portrayed in other accounts, where magic is highly fantastic.

Also, I've got to stop responding from work! I went back and read my last post and I can't believe how many redundancies I used and said things more than once.

BTW - I know you said you wanted to avoid the "druids dying out" explanation which is exactly why I said it. My point being that Merlin had nothing to do with the extinction of the druids - they were going extinct anyway. So you can talk about why druids ceased to exist, but Merlin does not need to be part of that conversation because his only tie was to their powers, not their order - he was not a true druid in the occupational sense. Similar to those who know witchcraft and those who are witches - one does not necessarily make you the other.

I think you have it right about our slight difference of opinion on Merlin's use of spiritual power. My sticking point is that any access to spiritual power cannot be commanded, whereas dinadan does look at it as a wielded power, as far as I can tell. In other words, I see all spiritual power on the same realm as Avallach saw the Grail. He did not command it, only trusted the will of God and let it do what it will.

I'm sure I could have made all these points with half the words, but that's what you get at 2:00am!

[dinadan]

I don't mean to be disparraging dgan, but Riothamus' questions which started this exploration specifically wanted to compare SRL's Merlin to Merlin/magic in other contexts--specifically Lewis' conception.

[Riothamus]

Although highly spiritual, SRL stays tied to reality much more closely than others. Even when referring to magical events or magical acts, SRL always holds reference to reality and spirituality. Therefore, I guess I don't look at things (such as druid magic) in the same light as it is portrayed in other accounts, where magic is highly fantastic.

I see what you're saying, but even Lawhead's realism is highly fantastic, because it's highly fictional. So that, whether or not his magic is well integrated into his "realism," it's still justifiable to compare him to other authors in general, and Lewis in particular. (And I imagine dinadan could pull up some interesting Charles Williams comparisons....) [Over at the Rotunda, we have a (moribund) literary influence thread that it might be worthwhile to import....]

Also, I've got to stop responding from work! I went back and read my last post and I can't believe how many redundancies I used and said things more than once.

Heh. Redundancies help you clarify what you mean and explain yourself better. I use 'em all the time.

BTW - I know you said you wanted to avoid the "druids dying out" explanation which is exactly why I said it. My point being that Merlin had nothing to do with the extinction of the druids - they were going extinct anyway. So you can talk about why druids ceased to exist, but Merlin does not need to be part of that conversation because his only tie was to their powers, not their order - he was not a true druid in the occupational sense. Similar to those who know witchcraft and those who are witches - one does not necessarily make you the other.

Technicality. He was trained by druids at one time and called himself a "bard." He's effectively a druid. But again, I'm referring to Lawhead's intent; what was he trying to say, et cetera, rather than to the immediate demands of the fiction.

dinadan wrote

Well, by Heaven! I had no idea that we could think the same thing, Riothamus!

Dear, dear, dear...what is the world coming to?

Hal Lindsay's listing it as one of the signs of the end-times.... ;D

[dinadan]

Riothamus said:

(And I imagine dinadan could pull up some interesting Charles Williams comparisons....)

Actually, I was planning of throwing out Charles Wiliams' conception of Merlin for comparison.

It's clear that Merlin's magic is not of this world, but neither is is alien to it--it operates on a level that "mere" reality does not. In a sense, he does have that peculiar sort of notion of working with "higher natural law"--but at the same time, we have to account for the fact the openly acknowledges that his power comes from Broceliande (that is, Williams' conception of Faeried or the Otherworld). Of course, he could just mean that his time spent mystically contemplating Broceliande could have changed him, made him more aware of the "higher laws." But then we have to contend with Williams' other assertion that every person who attempts to transcend the flesh while living--whether they are a diabolist, witch, saint, or Christian mystic--neccessarily travels through Broceliande; the problem is that one one road through Brocelliande is a "Straight Road" that leads to the Grail Castle, and from there to Saras (the Land of the Trinity). All other roads lead ultimiately to antipodean P'o-L'u, were the Headless Emperor walks ever backward and enacts the Acts in Contention (that is, the knowledge of pure evil). Given this set up, it is entirely possible that we wouldn't be able to exactly "trust" Williams' Merlin...except for the fact that he and his sister, Brisien, are sent from Broceliande to prepare the experiment in Logres--which will be a joining of the Celestial Hierarchy (epitomized in the poem by Byzantium) with the ultimate source of all beauty and creativity, Broceliande. The hope is to do this in order to create a land on earth where the Grail can come and inhabit, creating the perfect Christian kingdom. So, while he is working for a goal that is supremely Christian, his methods would not be recognizable to most Christians--unless we permit Christian mysticism (of which Williams was an ardent proponent).

Ok, enough for now...I'll be back with more later, perhaps, but I'm headed home for a brief vacation for the next week, so I won't be checking this frequently. Good weekend, all!

[dgan]

dinadan said:

I don't mean to be disparraging dgan, but Riothamus' questions which started this exploration specifically wanted to compare SRL's Merlin to Merlin/magic in other contexts--specifically Lewis' conception.

Perhaps that is what is creating this point of contention. Riothamus actually asked 3 separate questions, and only the third was related to literary comparisons. I have been responding to the first two questions, more or less, whereas you have been addressing the third. I suppose that is why I am looking at the topic differently. However, I don't disagree with any of your main thoughts - heck, I don't even understand half of them.

[dinadan]

True, he did ask three seperate questions--but it seems to me that you can't answer any one of them without the others. Merlin's a character who's entire makeup is so different that it takes almost a total understanding of him to try to make him comprehensible.

Let's kick this discussion back up; I'm not done with Merlin yet.

So, I'm thinking, could Merlin be good, but be good in ways that it is impossible for us to be good? In other words, can he be playing by a set of rules that trump the rules we play by? Any thoughts?

[Riothamus]

Do you mean, can he subscribe to so-called "situational ethics"? Or is he Dostoevsky's "Napoleon" figure? I've never really thought of his actions in that light. To be sure, from the actions he takes in the Cycle, he never seems to be stepping outside of the conventional rules.

Or do you refer primarily to his use of magic? [Sorry--I've just moved, and it's early, and I'm not thinking very clearly.]

[dinadan]

Well, I think his use of magic is intimately tied up with who/what Merlin is--so much so that to try to separtate one from the other would destroy "Merlin."

So, I suppose, yes, I'm wondering how you (not you specifically, Rio, but everyone in general) feel about what that means when we consider Merlin.

[violist]

Sorry to intrude on the conversation but I have been reading the thread as well as the Cycle. I must first say that I was shocked by the ending of Arthur, but that's life.

Now, I was wondering on a few things that were said in the topic. One thing was that it seems like Merlin and Arthur and the Summer Realm are all looked as Predistined events by God. I don't see it like that. Merlin admits himself that he did not first see Arthur to be the Summer Lord until later in Arthur's life. However, I would say that the Summer Realm was Predistined or Prophesied about. I know this question does not have much to do with the topic at hand. But I was just wondering what you all thought about it. You all know more than me about the topic because SRL is the only Merlin stuff I have read. I would like some recomendations on good reads though.

I think I might try to address the question on the laws. I believe that would assume that there are divine laws that which we can not attain or just do not use. In the Gospels, Jesus said himself that the miracles He did were possible through us. We only need faith. Some disciples even performed miracles. I would say, that Merlin has more faith than most and follows the same laws as everyone, the only laws that God has shown us. His faith is what sets him apart from us. He has to since it seems that his life is tied to the Summer Realm. If he wants his life to be meaningful, which I am sure that everyone does just to what extent, he must have faith so that he can perform the tasks to make his life and Summer Realm worthwhile. I am not sure, but I think I just argued with myself. I said that I did not think Merlin was predistined but I also said that Merlin was linked to the Summer Realm. But the role of currator of the Summer Realm was given to him by Taliesin through Charis. So, maybe he assumed the role and has yet to relinguish it to another because of his faith and perfectionism. Sorry for the linkth and intrusion, I just liked your disscusions and personalities. Thank you.

[Gwalchmai]

Well whatever questions were listed... they are all kinda a blur to me after reading this whole thread straight through. So I'll just kinda list some thoughts I had while reading this.

For starters, I must read this differently from everyone else. Because I really don't see any of the bards, seers, druids, preistesses, etc. using magic as I would define the term. I think the main reason for that, is I read through the whole thing as if it all really happened and then back tracked and did my best to explain how all these things came about. At least to the point where I no longer want to pursue it

Anyways, I'm not sure its fair to compare Merlin to Morgain to an equal stand point. The way I see it, Merlins instruction amounts to the following: Druidic and bardic background like his father from Blaise and Haffgan to aid in his perception of things and to continue the torch of tradition for his people. Dafvyd and Collen helped to show him the path on which to follow his gifts on. And the hill people taught him skills from the beggining. When I say that, I mean the culture of these obviously ancient people. Which I am going to say is where Druidism started at and developed up to its present state. So generally I see the skills from the druids in perception, song, and knowledge. I see the preists passing on a path to tred on, an outlet for his druid lore, and love . And the hill people gave the forgotten knowledge of our ancestors.
Now Morgain's powers are based on the culmination of knowledge based on Mithras, Bel, Isis, and perhaps some of the other gods/goddesses of Britain. And I think that despite how she is refered to as working for the Evil One, I don't think she does it directly. She does it through her rituals to Bel of the Mithras or to whomever but the end result is the same. But I mean come on, what can stand up to the power of God?

As far as how long Merlin lives, from other things I've read, it's generally seen as the soul of Britain. So, so longer as Britain remeans, so will he. Oh yea, his Atlantean blood too.

And as far as being the last of the druids is concerned, only a few accepted Haffgan's proclamation and converted to the word of God. The rest I would say came together again and saw the truth in what Haffgan said but refused the belive in this end truth. So what do you do when you get the wrong answer to a problem? You back track. So when we see them later in the books, they have become fools and people unworthy to carry on the role of spiritual guidance.

And I'm a bit confused about this lastest question. Why would he play by different rules? I mean as far as I'm concerned to do the right thing is a pretty straight forward thing.

And congrats if this makes sense.

[dinadan]

First of all, welcome to the discussion violist and Gwalchmai.

Everyone's got their own interpretation--and at the risk of reopening the SRL Denomination discussion--but there has to be some evidence for it. As far as the druids not using "magic," I'd like to hear your definition of what constitutes magic. Not having read the Cycle all the way through in about 4 years, but having read Merlin just here recently, I have to say there are numerous references to where Merlin uses magic--where he changes the outcome of what should happen through the use of magic powers that he got from the druids.

As to the predestination thing, here are my thoughts on that:

I don't think the Summer Realm is pre-destined in the sense that is MUST come into being; it's more of a possibility. And, the reason Merlin didn't recognize Arthur as the Summer Lord until later is that Merlin assumed that he, himself, was supposed to be the Summer Lord but that he blew his chance when he killed those few thousand people and then spend god-only-knows-how-long living as a wild man in the forest. He didn't realize until later that the Summer Realm was still possible with someone else at the helm.

Back to the magic thing for a moment; I think Morgian may have started her service to the Evil One through the Mithrais, Bel, or Isis cults, but by the time of Grail--and certainly by the time of Avalon--it is obvious that she knows the source of her powers. I mean, she calls herself The Queen of Air and Darkness--if she were working within the mystery cults, she wouldn't take on a title like that which is antithetic to those cults (after all, the worship of Mithrais and Isis were religions that professed happiness and peace--they were immensely popular in late antiquity for that reason). So yeah, I'm not willing to let Morgian off quite that easily.