Merlin

[dinadan]

dgan said:

Merlin, I believe, at one point calls out something similar to, "Great Light, how long must I endure?!" I defer to those much more knowledgeable than me as to Celtic mythology, magic, etc... However, I believe this statement reveals he is not immortal, and that he graces the earth so long as God employs his services. To a point, it may be out of Merlin's control.

That being said, there is some reason to believe it could be his Atlantean heritage. Charis wrote that Annubi had served Avallach, Avallach's father, and his father's father, and we know that peace had reigned on Atlantis for over 2000 years. Who's to say Annubi was not alive a significant amount of that time?

Good points all around. I was thinking, it could be that Merlin is not "technically" immortal, but that his life could be somehow tied to the earth itself (sort of like Tolkien's elves), so that as long as the world lasts, he lives. Does that makes sense at all?

Also, there is no reason to believe that Annubi wasn't around all that time--I mean, good lord, look how long Avallach and Charis themselves lived; there's every reason to think that he might've been alive all throughout the 2000 years of peace.

[Riothamus]

dinadan said:

Good points all around. I was thinking, it could be that Merlin is not "technically" immortal, but that his life could be somehow tied to the earth itself (sort of like Tolkien's elves), so that as long as the world lasts, he lives. Does that makes sense at all?

Interesting point. I'm not sure (predictably? ;D ) that I totally agree with it, but it's certainly a thought.

My own impression was that his long life was tied up in the Summer Realm, and that he couldn't die until he saw it fulfilled, rather like that fellow in the temple to whom the Lord promised that he would not die until he saw the redemption of Israel. Except that Merlin is meant to have an active part in the realization of the Kingdom of Summer.

[dinadan]

Riothamus said:

My own impression was that his long life was tied up in the Summer Realm, and that he couldn't die until he saw it fulfilled, rather like that fellow in the temple to whom the Lord promised that he would not die until he saw the redemption of Israel. Except that Merlin is meant to have an active part in the realization of the Kingdom of Summer.

That, too, is possible--but then, if the Summer Kingdom never comes to be, then Merlin is bound to live until the world ends--although, Avalon seems to give us some hope (although we're still not sure if James will live up to his potential).

[Riothamus]

Well, I didn't notice any ambiguity in the ending, so it would seem that the Summer Realm did come to pass. And couldn't not come to pass--was that a double negative? There's some pretty strong indications in Avalon that what goes on was more or less pre-determined.

[dinadan]

Riothamus said:

Well, I didn't notice any ambiguity in the ending, so it would seem that the Summer Realm did come to pass. And couldn't not come to pass--was that a double negative? There's some pretty strong indications in Avalon that what goes on was more or less pre-determined.

Granted that we are given to believe that things go about as they were meant to the first time; yes, that was strongly implied--but, since there is no direct statement that the Kingdom of Summer does, in fact, come to fruition within the text, there is no way to make an absolute claim. (Sorry, this is my English major half rearing its ugly head).

[dgan]

Well, again I feel I am hopelessly addressing those with a much better understanding of fantasy writing than myself. However, what strikes me is that the Summer Realm never developed as a truly real place on earth at any time. Let me explain.

Taliesin had a vision of the Summer Realm. He asked Charis to carry that vision onto their son. Merlin then spent his entire life trying to "create" a man equal to that vision - not to "create" the Summer Realm, so to speak. Arthur was that man. And the binding theme Merlin always eluded to was, "people will not follow a dream, but they will follow a man with a dream."

Therefore, I feel there are two ways to look at this. Either the Summer Realm is established when a "man with the dream" is established (Arthur), or else the Summer Realm is never intended to be a physical establishment, but rather the continued aspiration towards Taliesin's vision. I'm not even sure there is really a difference between those two definitions.

The point being that the Summer Realm was, is, and always will be a vision. The Summer Lord is the one who holds that vision but does not necessarily attain it. I am not sure if this is making any sense, but hopefully you understand what I'm getting at. Then again, I could be completely off-base.

[Riothamus]

since there is no direct statement that the Kingdom of Summer does, in fact, come to fruition within the text, there is no way to make an absolute claim.

True, but I've never known Lawhead to employ this type of authorial distance from his narrator (except in the kinda-sorta case of Morgian in Grail) Generally, though he may dissent on small points, the conclusion seems in line with his own thinking. And the narrator in Avalon is pretty clearly authorial-omnicient, and its conclusions and implications can be taken as Lawhead's own; does that make sense? (This whole author-narrator seperation thing is at once fascenating and confusing; I love it, naturally. ;D )
To put it in a less confrontational manner: has Lawhead ever, to your knowledge, dissented from the conclusions (as opposed to starting-point,) of his chosen narrator, be it a character or an omnicient third person?

dgan wrote

The point being that the Summer Realm was, is, and always will be a vision. The Summer Lord is the one who holds that vision but does not necessarily attain it. I am not sure if this is making any sense, but hopefully you understand what I'm getting at. Then again, I could be completely off-base

Just out of curiosity (not wishing in any way to start another religious debate,) what's your eschatological position? I think it has a lot to do with how one views the series in general, and the Summer Realm in particular. To me, it always seemed a bit of a postmillenialist ideal--the Kingdom of God brought to bear upon the earth, and the final victory of God's elect. Arthur failed to bring it about, but James--seemingly--does bring it about, attains the Summer Realm.
But then, I tend to be a bit literal-minded at times, so it could well be that I'm mistaken here.

[dinadan]

Do I believe it possible for people to create and live in the Kingdom of Summer, with the Grail coming from the land of the Trinity to dwell among us--certainly. Without any reservation I believe it to be possible. Do I believe it likely at all to happen? No, I do not. It is the most improbable of all improbabilities--precisely because it would take a milleneum of work to produce people worthy of the vision.

Just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt (as with all else).

[dgan]

Riothamus said:

Just out of curiosity (not wishing in any way to start another religious debate,) what's your eschatological position?

lol. Since I have no clue what eschatological means, you do not have to worry about sparking another religious conversation.

For a change, I was speaking literally as well, without consideration of my own beliefs or ideals. Perhaps that is why the entire topic is ambiguous to me. Maybe SRL intended the story to appeal to whatever personal position you may hold on the matter, rather than establishing one within the story.

Although any number of correlations could be made to common religious themes, I was just taking the text at face value. The Summer Kingdom is always referred to as a vision, which I find intriguiging. Simple as that. Also, the fact that I am always contemplating these things at work, while working third shift, could explain some of my fragmented thoughts. ;D

[Riothamus]

Well, I might be reading my own position in....

Eschatology is the doctrine of last things, primarily the doctrine of the end of the world, though some theologians (such as Rushdoony) generalize it so that anything that fulfills its purpose (such as a marriage,) is an eschatological event. But in this sense, it means the doctrine of end-times.

Being a postmillenialist, myself, (the opposite of LaHaye, in other words,) I never saw the Summer Realm as anything less than a possibility. Arthur's disappearance is a disaster because--as I see it--the Summer Realm was more than a dream, and this is why his return is so essential. But I may be wrong.

dinadan wrote:

It is the most improbable of all improbabilities--precisely because it would take a milleneum of work to produce people worthy of the vision.

Actually, it only took about thirty years of work, and one day of death....

But seriously, speaking within Lawhead's body of work, especially the Cycle, I see your point. Those Brits were certainly rotters in their infancy, . But Avalon does seem to give hope. Now, you can argue that there's a narrative distance between Lawhead the author and Lawhead the storyteller, but I don't see it.

[Riothamus]

Returning to:

(3) What is the nature of his magic?

Three sub-questions:

1. What differentiates Merlin's magic from Lile's? In the once case, it's seen as powerful and, in fact, God-inspired; in the other, it's misguided at best, and at the worse it is the path by which the Evil One gains access to Morgian. How are we to differentiate them? What is the primary disparity between them?

2. How does Merlin's magic differ from that of the druids before him?

3. Does Merlin's magic in Lawhead's conception square with Lewis's idea, or is it at odds with it? (Avalon would certainly seem to suggest the latter, but since we're calling anything not explicitly stated into question [ ] we have room to move around however we like.)

[dinadan]

Riothamus said:

Returning to:


Three sub-questions:

1. What differentiates Merlin's magic from Lile's? In the once case, it's seen as powerful and, in fact, God-inspired; in the other, it's misguided at best, and at the worse it is the path by which the Evil One gains access to Morgian. How are we to differentiate them? What is the primary disparity between them?

2. How does Merlin's magic differ from that of the druids before him?

3. Does Merlin's magic in Lawhead's conception square with Lewis's idea, or is it at odds with it? (Avalon would certainly seem to suggest the latter, but since we're calling anything not explicitly stated into question [ ] we have room to move around however we like.)

I promise to respond, but only after I am back to full-strength; I've been arguing philosophy about pacificism and non-violence for three hours after attending a two hour lecture on Druids, the Maccabees, and Syncrotistic Empire...I'm almost intellectually brain dead.

Consider this an IOU

[Riothamus]

dinadan said:

I promise to respond, but only after I am back to full-strength; I've been arguing philosophy about pacificism and non-violence for three hours after attending a two hour lecture on Druids, the Maccabees, and Syncrotistic Empire...I'm almost intellectually brain dead.

Consider this an IOU

So considered.

...Druids, Maccabees and Syncrotistic Empire? Sounds like an interesting lecture....

[dgan]

#3 I'm not going to touch. The other two I believe are pretty simple and stated quite clearly in the books.

#1. What separates Merlin's magic from Lile, Morgain, evil, etc...? As far as origin, probably nothing, but merely its use. A knife is still a knife, whether used to kill someone or used to cut celery for supper. Both delved mostly into the earthly powers, and Merlin even had that confrontation with the priests at Ynys Avallach following his healing of Morgian's spell on him. They were concerned of his flirtation with "black magic". Therefore, I'm not sure there is a difference in origin, as I said, but just how the power was wielded.

#2. Different from druids? Again, not in origin. The difference there was just in ability and aptitude. Like Taliesin, his gifts were just greater than other druids, not necessarily different. This is stated innumerable times.

That is my humble opinion on that.

[Riothamus]

So use is the determining factor. (Although, with Morgian, remember it's explicitly stated, also, that she derives her power from the Evil One; she even has "massive black forms" follow her around.)

So, if use is the determining factor, what differentiates Merlin's use from Lile's? Lile clearly wasn't very successful. Why? And Merlin's use from that of the druids? (Besides the fact that he's spent time with the hillfolk.)