Tolkien

[dinadan]

So, we've discussed the Great One elsewhere, I decided it was time to have a thread for him specifically.

Of course, I suppose this is less of a reccomendation (I assume that as fantasy fans we're all familiar with him--and if you aren't, by some strange chance, shame) and more of a talk-Tolkien area.

So, since we've mentioned Beren and Luthien over on the C. S. Lewis Thread, let's talk about them here. How does everyone feel about intermarriage between the immortal elves and human beings? And, keep in mind, Luthien's mother was one of the Maiar, so she's half-divine--which means that Dior (Luthien and Beren's son) is a quarter divine. All that really gets complicated with Elrond and Elros, since Elros chooses to be mortal (but he's still the great-grandchild of a lesser god), and passes his divine-genes on down to Aragorn (who is something more than human, definitely). Is there something wrong with that?

[Riothamus]

Not within the mythology, I should think, especially as Aragorn is meant in part as a Christ-figure (not as strongly as Aslan in Lewis's work, but the houses of healing stuff is pretty Christological in its implications.) So one could view the whole thing as a "chosen" line, decending through history, and culminating in a Savior-King, much like the Davidic line. Not that Tolkien meant it as allegory, of course; just a parallell.
Now if one of the posters here told me that they were decended from a lesser god, I would definitely worry.

[dinadan]

Even in terms of the mythology, it's a little problematic; and, drawing a line to the parallels, I think of Aragorn as much more Solomon like figure than a Christ-like one. Aragorn's kingdom was the last blaze of glory for Numenor--only two generations removed from him was the material Tolkien was writing about what happned after LotR ("the New Shadow"), and even those closely following Aragorn were already eroding away much faster that, say, Elendil's kingdom in Middle Earth. He is, like Solomon, of the Chosen Line--but even he (and more importantly, his direct heirs), were not capable of bringing about salvation.

But, no mortal man is allowed in Araman--but if you are related to the gods, why shouldn't you be able to go there? Ar-Pharazon's "madness" seems a little less mad in this light, although that does not excuse him for listening to Sauron or for the other crimes he comitted.

[Dred]

I think that what is really keeping the decendants of Elros out of Valinor is the fact that Elros chose a mortal life. Elrond chose to remain Elf kind and is thus entitled to returning. I think it all comes back to the choice. Had Elros not chosen as he had, then those decendant's of his would have been allowed entrance into the Undying lands.

[dinadan]

I'm not disputing that beause they are mortal that they aren't allowed--but to what degree does their "not quite human" status give them special dispensation. Also, remember, Aragon and Arwen's chidlren would be more closely relative to the lesser gods than Aragorn himself...I wish there were more about post-Aragorn times than exsits. It would make for fascinating reading.

[twyrch]

dinadan said:

So, we've discussed the Great One elsewhere, I decided it was time to have a thread for him specifically.

Of course, I suppose this is less of a reccomendation (I assume that as fantasy fans we're all familiar with him--and if you aren't, by some strange chance, shame) and more of a talk-Tolkien area.

So, since we've mentioned Beren and Luthien over on the C. S. Lewis Thread, let's talk about them here. How does everyone feel about intermarriage between the immortal elves and human beings? And, keep in mind, Luthien's mother was one of the Maiar, so she's half-divine--which means that Dior (Luthien and Beren's son) is a quarter divine. All that really gets complicated with Elrond and Elros, since Elros chooses to be mortal (but he's still the great-grandchild of a lesser god), and passes his divine-genes on down to Aragorn (who is something more than human, definitely). Is there something wrong with that?

Not in my mind... What I find humorous is that Aragorn is of the linage of the Numenoreons... who decended from Elros, Elrond's brother. When Aragorn married Arwen, he was marrying his cousin (albiet distant).

I also found it difficult to believe that Galadriel could have been party to the Kinslayings of the Elves as they traveled to Middle Earth.

[twyrch]

Riothamus said:

Not within the mythology, I should think, especially as Aragorn is meant in part as a Christ-figure (not as strongly as Aslan in Lewis's work, but the houses of healing stuff is pretty Christological in its implications.) So one could view the whole thing as a "chosen" line, decending through history, and culminating in a Savior-King, much like the Davidic line. Not that Tolkien meant it as allegory, of course; just a parallell.
Now if one of the posters here told me that they were decended from a lesser god, I would definitely worry.

I never thought of Aragorn as a Christ Figure, but I can see your points. You have a strong case for that assumption.... Interesting...

[dinadan]

twyrch said:

I also found it difficult to believe that Galadriel could have been party to the Kinslayings of the Elves as they traveled to Middle Earth.

I don't think she was...she was with Fingolfin's party who came up after the battle was engaged and so didn't know that the Noldor had started the fight; true, she fell under the Curse as a result (like all of them did), but all those who crossed the Helcaraxë with Fingolfin did some atonement.

Galadriel may have been good, but she was not above a desire for power; she wanted to be a queen, which she got. That wasn't wrong in itself, but it bordered on a desire to dominate--which is the BIG SIN in Tolkien's cosmology. It was only when she rejected the Ring that she was found innocent of that sin, and thus allowed to come back to Aman; but she returned humbled, and no longer a Queen.

[twyrch]

dinadan said:

I don't think she was...she was with Fingolfin's party who came up after the battle was engaged and so didn't know that the Noldor had started the fight; true, she fell under the Curse as a result (like all of them did), but all those who crossed the Helcaraxë with Fingolfin did some atonement.

Galadriel may have been good, but she was not above a desire for power; she wanted to be a queen, which she got. That wasn't wrong in itself, but it bordered on a desire to dominate--which is the BIG SIN in Tolkien's cosmology. It was only when she rejected the Ring that she was found innocent of that sin, and thus allowed to come back to Aman; but she returned humbled, and no longer a Queen.

I guess I'll have to look it up, but I've read the Silmarillion 3 times now... I'm almost positive she was a member of that group. Hmmmm.... I could be wrong though.

I saw the lust for the ring, as the same lust for the Silmarils. One gave power through magic. One gave power through importance. Everyone coveted the ring as much as the silmarils.

[dinadan]

twyrch said:

I guess I'll have to look it up, but I've read the Silmarillion 3 times now... I'm almost positive she was a member of that group. Hmmmm.... I could be wrong though.

I saw the lust for the ring, as the same lust for the Silmarils. One gave power through magic. One gave power through importance. Everyone coveted the ring as much as the silmarils.

She was there, but came late with Fingolfin.

Also, the Silmarils and the Ring are totally different; the Silmarils didn't grant dominion over anything--nor did they have power in themselves (in ways that the Rings of Power did). The Silmarils were the hight of Noldorin craftsmanship, but what caused them to be of such importance is the Oath of Fëanor--which was bound up with the Curse of Mandos on all the Noldor. With the Rings, it's not a lust for a treasure that doesn't belong to you, it's a lust for dominion; and, the Great Ring most of all, because it was Sauron's lust for dominion that caused them to be made, and great portions of his inherent (Maiar) nature passed into it, making it fully evil. Galadriel's rejection of that--of the chance to dominate life in Middle Earth and set herself up as a great Queen in the ways of the Valar--is what allowed her to be forgiven at last. Because, remember, she was there and could have been pardoned of her crime with the rest of the Noldor after the War of Wrath--but she spurned that pardon because she refused to return humbled to Aman, because she could be a queen in Middle Earth; that's what she had to atone for, and what the rejection of the Ring meant for her.

[twyrch]

dinadan said:

She was there, but came late with Fingolfin.

Also, the Silmarils and the Ring are totally different; the Silmarils didn't grant dominion over anything--nor did they have power in themselves (in ways that the Rings of Power did). The Silmarils were the hight of Noldorin craftsmanship, but what caused them to be of such importance is the Oath of Fëanor--which was bound up with the Curse of Mandos on all the Noldor. With the Rings, it's not a lust for a treasure that doesn't belong to you, it's a lust for dominion; and, the Great Ring most of all, because it was Sauron's lust for dominion that caused them to be made, and great portions of his inherent (Maiar) nature passed into it, making it fully evil. Galadriel's rejection of that--of the chance to dominate life in Middle Earth and set herself up as a great Queen in the ways of the Valar--is what allowed her to be forgiven at last. Because, remember, she was there and could have been pardoned of her crime with the rest of the Noldor after the War of Wrath--but she spurned that pardon because she refused to return humbled to Aman, because she could be a queen in Middle Earth; that's what she had to atone for, and what the rejection of the Ring meant for her.

Ahh... Well, then I stand corrected.

Here's something I can't really remember too well... maybe you can remember it... Tom Bombadil. Where did he come from and why did the ring not affect him when he put it on? Was he a scion of Beren and Luthien? I just can't seem to remember.

[Dred]

There is very little detail into the background of Bombadil. Gandalf makes a reference to him in the LOTR when he was asked why the ring didn't affect Tom. I believe his response was that Tom was far older and had a power of sorts so that the ring wouldn't affect him.

I've yet to find anything else that sheds more light into the nature and background of Tom Bombadil.

[dinadan]

Tolkien says in the "Letters" at various times that Bombadil is an enigma; he has no place in the cosmology, and was simply put in to give the hobbits an adventure between the Shire and Bree.

That being said, there are generally two camps of "What is Tom Bombadil" among Tolkien fans. The first position is that he is one of the Maiar, but greater in stature than Sauron; this position has problems because even the Valar might've been tempted by the Ring, as one of the people at the Council of Elrond responds to the idea that they might send the ring "over the Sea" by saying "They [the Valar] would not recieve it." The other camp belives that he is Illuvatar himself living among his creation--I think this is patently absurd, but the reasoning is that only Illuvatar would be completely unphased by the evil of the Ring; however, given that Tolkien is imagining his world as a part of real, forgotten history, he makes it clear that the "incarnation" (small "i") of the Maiar as wizards is a totally new thing--and something that was thought could not be done by any more powerful beings (hence some of the Valar didn't become wizards and waltz over to Middle Earth). If the Valar (who, in most cases, are far more powerful than the Maiar) didn't think flesh was capable of handling them, how much more so the All-Father?

I will say this about the suggestion that he is a Maiar, although I think that neither of these positions is good, given Tolkien's explanations: Melian (Luthien's mother) was a powerful Maia, and had power enough to prevent Sauron from encroaching in Doriath...so, yes, there are some of the Maiar more powerful (or at least as poweful) as Sauron--but I think that if it was feared that the even the Valar might succumb to the lure of the Ring, so would one of Sauron's own order.

[Riothamus]

Didn't Tolkien say elsewhere in his letters that Bombadil was a kind of genus locii? A nature-spirit? It's been a while since I checked out the letters.

[dinadan]

Well, he offers that as a possibility...but makes it pretty clear that all explanations for Bombadil are after the fact.

Tom Bombadil was a doll one of his son's played with (Michael, I think)...and Tolkien used to make up stories about him to tell the kids...then he just sort of slipped into LotR--mostly because, like Beorn (who also is hard to explain in terms of Tolkien cosmology) in The Hobbit, he wasn't expecting to create a comprehensive world out of his Hobbit sequel that tied into his England-mythology at first. But, once he did tie it together (with a little judicious rewriting of the Riddle Game chapter of the Hobbit), he made it work--sort of. Bombadil and Beorn are leftovers, of a sort. But it's fun to try to see where they fit.