Celtic Crusades vs Song of Albion

[twyrch]

Child said:

**thread derailment**
What do you guys who have read it think of the Celtic Crusades? I just read them for only the second time and I was sadly disappointed. They just aren't that good. Granted, the Iron Lance has a few memorable episodes, and the Mystic Rose is a step above, but the series had me bored and wishing it was over by partway through the second book.

It was a drudgery... I read them for only one reason, SRL wrote them... otherwise, I wouldn't have bought them.

[Hnefi]

I really enjoyed 'The Iron Lance' and 'The Mystic Rose' but felt 'The Black Rood' dragged a bit in parts. I wouldn't say the series is SRL at his best but its still well worth reading. I'd go for Albion over Crusades every time, but my all time favorite is without doubt 'Byzantium' .

[Child of Immanuel]

Charis said:

I got the Celtic Crusades and those are pretty good. I was disappointed with The Mystic Rose. He didn't need that one in my opinion.

That's interesting, because my feelings are exactly the opposite. I thought the Mystic Rose almost made the first two worth it (not quite, alas).

[tulkas]

I have not read the celtic crusades, but i have the song of albion. As you can se by my user name, I love tolkiens work. I would suggest with strong support reading the song of albion. Enjoy !

[Gwalchmai]

I don't see it guys. I really don't understand the fasination with SOA. The characters seems very inconsistant and lack development in areas I would expect development. What makes trhe series so good? And I would appreciate something other than "It just is!" if you don't mind

[DanTheMan]

For me, I think it was the relationship between Llew and Tegid. I liked how several of the relationships developed and the camaraderie that happened especially in the Silver Hand book. I think the Celtic Crusades were very well written and I enjoyed them. But SoA was also intriging in using the Otherworld, the respect for the King, the teamwork, and Llew's sacrifice in the end.

[dgan]

gwalchmai said:

I don't see it guys. I really don't understand the fasination with SOA. The characters seems very inconsistant and lack development in areas I would expect development. What makes trhe series so good? And I would appreciate something other than "It just is!" if you don't mind

*claps* thank you. I love SOA, but I agree that I don't see it as being head and shoulders above the rest. In fact, I think Murdo is much more of an engaging character than Lewis is. Of course, it could be that Lewis' pessimism reminds me of myself... Llew shows moderate improvement over time, but then at the end sinks back into his same old shell.

[dinadan]

And now to defend Albion against the infidels!

Ok, the reason why SoA is so beloved is because it is so archetypal. In fact, I would venture to say it touches the archetypes that we all have as (if nothing else, intellectual/cultural) descendants of Western Europe. It's no secret that many of the people who study these things--folklore and whatnot--trace lots of our associations and mythic expectations to Celtic roots. Ideals about kingship, the wise wizard, the quest story, etc, all have their origin in Celtic myths and legends.

SoA taps directly into that. And, not only that, it does it remarkably well and on solid philosophic grounds. You may not realize this, but Nettle's (in)famous plexus-nexus passage in TPW, where he sums up John Scot Eirugena's tetrarchal division of Nature based on the nature of God, is brilliant. SRL also manages to combine this with an understanding of NeoPlatonism (which, for better or worse, the West has also inherited), which posits the Celitc Otherworld as the Platonic realm of the Forms. The effect of all this mythic and philosophic fusion is a ready-made world in which the old legends that pepper the stories (and are also littered through the Pendragon Cycle) can be lived out, real-time, in a world co-terminous with our own, but separated from it somewhat.

Also, to say that Llew and Tegid (and even Simon!!) don't undergo significant character development in the course of the series is reprehensible; but at the same time, to expect some long, modern extrapolation into the characters is not what SRL is about with Albion. Think of SoA as a kind of pimal fantasy; the people aren't necessarily one-dimensional characters, but they are mythic in their quality. The only person who isn't from 'our' world that we see "grow" in the course of the novels is Tegid--but I would argue that Tegid doesn't grow so much as return to his mythic nature (the depressed Tegid of TPW is a character reacting to the most strenuous and unexpected of circumstances in his world--which would no doubt shake anyone's faith; he does, however, return to it, ardently, one he realizes that the events of TPW do not spell the end of his world). As a matter of fact, the entire point of Albion seems to be a kind of proving ground for people from our world. Llew who rises above, and Simon who sinks into utter degeneracy.

So, in many ways, the story is about two people: Lewis/Llew and Simon/Siawn Hy. Both of them are from our world, and both of them represent what it means to be from our world. Simon is the best this world offers--wealth, priviledege, power; but in the Otherworld, as Siawn Hy, those things (which are not necessarily goods even in this world) become a catalyst not only for his own destruction, but for the destruction of that world. Lewis, on the other hand, is something of a slacker, a sedentary scholarly academic type--who are often, in our world, the focus of malicious humor as often as respect. But in the Otherworld, his basic instincts for doing what is good and right, transform him into Llew Llaw Ereint, the Champion of the Dagda. He alone is resistant to Simon's poison, even though--as one from our world--he should be the most corruptible. To say, as dgan did, that Lewis returns to his old ways as the end is, I think, very wrong. When he has the realization at the end of TEK that he must move on, and decides to give into death, he is at last accepting something that the old Lewis would've had lots of trouble with. In effect, that's when the change to Llew becomes permanent. When he is reborn in our world at the end, and the story comes full circle, he has welded the better parts of himself in both worlds together--and there is every suggestion that Lewis/Llew will be the one to help renew our world (maybe through the telling of his story) as well.

And, as Dan pointed out, the Tegid/Llew relationship is a marvellous creation. The back-and-forth teacher/student (who is teaching whom?) way that they relate to each other is an excellent and admirable expression of friendship. That, also, is part of the very primal appeal of the books; the interpersonal relationships in Albion--rooted deeply in ceremony and tradition--have an appeal to many of us in the modern world who reject the bland uniformity of modern commercial culture.

In many ways, Albion is what we've got to get back to if we want to have a meaningful life in the world--but this is drifting from my main point with this, so I'll stop it here.

[DanTheMan]

Hmm ... no, can't disagree there ... yep, that was well said ... huh. Well, it sure seems that I have to agree with Dinadan!

Yes, well said, Dinadan.

[Gwalchmai]

Well that does make much more sense now... but I still like Pendragon Cycle more

[dinadan]

gwalchmai said:

Well that does make much more sense now... but I still like Pendragon Cycle more

HAH! Can you read the tag on my avatar. Avalon Head of House? Yeah, you know where my loyalties truly lie.

But part of that is because I know that SoA and Pendragon aren't easily torn asunder. I can easily see Lewis being someone that James Arthur Stuart might know (or get to know). The Otherworld, as I said, is the source and expression of all that Celtic lore that enriches and makes The Pendragon Cycle what it is. Merlin is the last of that bardic tradition that has its roots in the Otherworld. In many ways, the Merlin/Arthur relationship mirrors that of Tegid/Llew; in other ways, Merlin is very much an amalgam of Tegid and Llew into a single character. Perhaps that is why I find him so compelling.

((It could also be pointed out that despite our on-forum rivalry, we Avalonians do dearly love our Albion brothers and sisters. The two conceptions are part of one another, on the mythic level))

Also, to Dan:

I enjoy forcing you to agree with me. I think I'll print out that comment of your and tape it up on my desk! ;D