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Relics
May 7, 2006 12:04:56 GMT -5
Post by Child of Immanuel on May 7, 2006 12:04:56 GMT -5
What is your feeling on relics, as seen in the Celtic Crusades and the Pendragon Cycle? Do you think that they are hallowed or just artifacts that Jesus happened to touch?
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Relics
May 7, 2006 13:35:12 GMT -5
Post by Tegid on May 7, 2006 13:35:12 GMT -5
We are forgetful little mortals, and we need reminders. We even have to be reminded of the astonishing things God has done, as well as the 'mundane' blessings he daily loads us with, and the way he wants us to walk to stay in his light. This is one of the reasons he tells us to keep speaking to each other in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. It is why we have sacraments or ordinances such as the one involving bread and the cup. It is why figures in the Old Testament set up pillars and anointed them, or built altars. It is why God commanded that his words be physically placed on foreheads and on every house's doorposts.
This is their purpose: remembrance.
We are also frail in other ways: We forget purposes. We look for easier ways. And we are each born with a nature that, however it shows itself, does not want to hold God as God. This is why a new birth, with the new nature it brings, is required.
Even our reminders can become an end in themselves, if we let them. As an example from the Bible, Israel had preserved the bronze serpent Moses made in the wilderness at God's command to heal those bitten by serpents there. Eventually, that relic turned into an object of veneration itself, and the people were even burning incense to it. During a time of national repentance and returning to God, Hezekiah saw it for what it was: a hunk of brass ("nehushtan"), and he had that idol smashed.
If a relic can keep its place as a reminder that brings us to God, it is serving an intended purpose. If it becomes the focus itself, or starts to be regarded as having powers, it would be much better for that stumbling block to be destroyed.
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Relics
May 7, 2006 23:28:02 GMT -5
Post by dgan on May 7, 2006 23:28:02 GMT -5
Actually, .... yeah, that's pretty much it for me too... Although I will expand on that to say that since God is obviously God, I would never deny the fact that God could work and worked his power through what we would now consider relics. Therefore, accounts, legends and stories of such things seem as likely fact as fiction to me. However, God can also work his power through a paper clip if he needed to, so the relic should never be the object of power or focus as Tegid stated.
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Caledvwlch
Mabinog
[M:0]
Never Walk Alone
Posts: 166
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Relics
May 9, 2006 17:15:35 GMT -5
Post by Caledvwlch on May 9, 2006 17:15:35 GMT -5
Definately agree with both u guys. All praise to our glorious God and King!
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Relics
Sept 4, 2007 12:23:00 GMT -5
Post by dinadan on Sept 4, 2007 12:23:00 GMT -5
Sorry for chiming in a little late on this.
I agree with Tegid, essentially, except for one thing. I see no problem with healing powers being attributed to relics--whether that be pieces of the Holy Cross, relics of saints, etc. God is wonderful in his saints, says the bible; the saints who are glorified, who have achieved astounding holiness, theosis, it is not surprising that these saints continue to work miracles through the power of the risen Lord. Death has no dominion over those in whom the saving work of Christ has reached its completion. These relics remind us of the living presence of those who have gone on, but over whom Death has no victory--and their continued ability to work miracles (just as many did in their earthly lives) reminds us that they are not dead, but live. I find that profoundly hope-inspiring.
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Relics
Sept 5, 2007 6:07:25 GMT -5
Post by Child of Immanuel on Sept 5, 2007 6:07:25 GMT -5
In the New Testament, 'saints' usually refers to the members of the church. Neither the Jews nor the first-century church had the concept of saints that the modern church has, so be careful about taking verses out of context.
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Relics
Sept 5, 2007 7:23:50 GMT -5
Post by dinadan on Sept 5, 2007 7:23:50 GMT -5
In the New Testament, 'saints' usually refers to the members of the church. Neither the Jews nor the first-century church had the concept of saints that the modern church has, so be careful about taking verses out of context. Well, yes and no. True enough that the Jews did not have such a concept--but then, before Christ, Sheol (the abode of the dead, aka Hades) was not a place of victory for anyone, the way it is now for those who have died as part of Christ's body. As far as the early church goes, they clearly had ideas that some folks were more dedicated to the life in Christ than others--hence St. James says in his epistle "the prayers of a righteous man availeth much" (5:16). This is why we pray for one another, after all; and does not Christ himself say, "I am the resurrection and the life: he that believes on me, though he have died, shall live; and every one who lives and believes on me shall never die" (St. John 11:25-26)? So, either Christ is a liar, or he actually means that those who die as members of his body shall never die. This means that the condition of death, as we experience it, is not the same as death was before Christ's resurrection. Continuing on, the obsession many modern Christians have with "the early Church" and its beliefs and practices is almost amusing. The Church of Acts chapter 1 is certainly different (in terms of practice) from the Church in Acts chapter 28 (for example, the former did not admit gentiles--the latter did). The Church is a living thing, and it grows over time. No one would suggest that it would be healthy for any person to stay perpetually in his infancy; neither should we expect that of the Church. It grows with time, and we trust that Holy Spirit will guide us to all truth, continually revealing to us the witness of Christ in his saints, as Christ promised. Too, let us remember that of the "early Church," many were passion bearers and martyrs for the faith; it is disingenuous for any of us to think of ourselves as the equals to such champions of the Faith as St. Stephen the Protomartyr, or St. Ignatius of Antioch, or St. Polycarp, or any of the holy and glorious Apostles, just by virtue of the fact that we call ourselves Christians. We live in an age that has grown cold and apostate, and have not been tested as they were tested and found worthy of the robe of incorruption given to the saints. Rather, I should say, I am not worthy of the honor of being numbered in such company--I am an unprofitable servant, and pray for God's mercy on this chief of sinners.
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Relics
Sept 7, 2007 13:12:41 GMT -5
Post by DanTheMan on Sept 7, 2007 13:12:41 GMT -5
We certainly should pray for mercy. We are all sinners, including any you may call saints or Saints. We have all fallen short of the glory of God and that includes the best Saint out there. But we are worthy in God's eyes if we have called on Jesus to be our Savior. What is our worth? It is the price of God's own Son, Jesus Christ. He gave His life for me just as He gave it for Patrick, Peter, Paul, or anyone else. Not only that, but we believers and followers of Christ are considered by God to be joint-heirs and brothers with Christ. Now, I certainly don't feel worthy of that but I think that puts all of us saints on the same level.
Back to relics. I think any wood that actually came from the cross of Jesus is just that. A piece of wood. God does not work through such objects by themselves. He works through people. True healing does not come from objects but from God, according to His will.
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Relics
Sept 7, 2007 17:44:46 GMT -5
Post by dinadan on Sept 7, 2007 17:44:46 GMT -5
We certainly should pray for mercy. We are all sinners, including any you may call saints or Saints. We have all fallen short of the glory of God and that includes the best Saint out there. But we are worthy in God's eyes if we have called on Jesus to be our Savior. What is our worth? It is the price of God's own Son, Jesus Christ. He gave His life for me just as He gave it for Patrick, Peter, Paul, or anyone else. Not only that, but we believers and followers of Christ are considered by God to be joint-heirs and brothers with Christ. Now, I certainly don't feel worthy of that but I think that puts all of us saints on the same level. Back to relics. I think any wood that actually came from the cross of Jesus is just that. A piece of wood. God does not work through such objects by themselves. He works through people. True healing does not come from objects but from God, according to His will. Indeed. But it seems to me that people who deny that there are physical, material things that are blessed, that are holy by virtue of the fact that salvation was accomplished through them, or by means of them, is to border on blasphemy. To quote St. John of Damascus: We do not worship the matter itself, we worship that which worked out our salvation through matter, which is the physical and material body of our lord and god and saviour, Jesus Christ. To deny that the power of God works through the matter of this world is gnostic heresy, and nothing more.
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Relics
Sept 8, 2007 6:44:55 GMT -5
Post by DanTheMan on Sept 8, 2007 6:44:55 GMT -5
God has used materials, no doubt, but I don't think He imbues them with special powers that can work in and of themselves. For example, I don't think God has given a piece of wood power to heal and that any person can come along, pick it up, and start healing people with it. It's one thing to honor the creation of our Creator, for the Creator's sake, but any healing or other power comes only from God. The problem is when people start worshiping these items (I'm not implying you do, Dinadan) instead of the Creator. And when people believe the power comes from the object and not God.
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Relics
Sept 9, 2007 2:33:16 GMT -5
Post by dinadan on Sept 9, 2007 2:33:16 GMT -5
I totally agree--and it has never been acceptable to worship the object itself, for itself, as it if were the object doing anything at all. But that wasn't the point, I don't think, of the discussion.
Do relics heal people--yes, they unequivocally have and continue to do so. Do they heal everyone who touches, kisses, or otherwise venerates them? No, they do not. One might even posit, since this is (I think) a question that surrounds the Grail...does it give eternal life to anyone that drinks from it? Well, I have a whole spiel on what the Grail is and is not, but we can start another thread just on that. But we know from the folklore that it doesn't work for everyone--it only works for those who know whom it serves, and what is its purpose. In other words, it won't do anything for you if you don't understand in your heart what its for and what is the source of the miraculous power. It is the same with any relic...it doesn't just "work" because God touched it, or one of the Saints, or anything else. Healings have and do happen around certain relics for those in need, and those who have perfect faith (perhaps even as little as that of a mustard seed).
I don't think we disagree, per se, I just don't think we reach the same conclusions from the same premises.
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Relics
Sept 14, 2007 8:06:14 GMT -5
Post by twyrch on Sept 14, 2007 8:06:14 GMT -5
God has used materials, no doubt, but I don't think He imbues them with special powers that can work in and of themselves. For example, I don't think God has given a piece of wood power to heal and that any person can come along, pick it up, and start healing people with it. True... I'm reminded of the woman who was suffering from a disease and touched Jesus' cloak. The Bible says that he felt power leave him and asked, "Who touched me?" When he discovered what had happened he told the woman, "Your faith has healed you." So perhaps the object itself doesn't have the power to heal, but our faith that God can use the object to heal us, is all we need. Remember, if one has the faith of a mustardseed, he can moves mountains.
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Relics
Sept 14, 2007 8:52:34 GMT -5
Post by dinadan on Sept 14, 2007 8:52:34 GMT -5
But of course (at least, this is true with relics of Saints), we must also take into account the prayers and faith of those Saints. If, for example, when I had the opportunity to venerate the relics of St. Photios this summer, and I asked the Saint to pray to Christ with me and for me, for the strengthening of my faith and for the salvation of those who are dear to me--it is not merely my faith that I am leaning on. I am standing within the 'great cloud of witnesses' of Hebrews 12, as the totality of the faith of the body of Christ--not just a single individual unit of faith.
So, the way I see it, there is more to it than just the faith of the person, but by no means does the faith of the person become irrelevant.
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Relics
Sept 14, 2007 12:06:32 GMT -5
Post by DanTheMan on Sept 14, 2007 12:06:32 GMT -5
While I might appreciate God's creation and that God uses things in this world to work with us, I would stop short of revering such items too highly. I don't know who Photios is or what relics are attributed him, but quite honestly I don't need him or those things to pray to God. No offense intended to Photios or anyone reading this. Jesus is my intercessor, my mediator. As Hebrews 12 says, "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus". God hears every prayer I utter, even when I do not know how to pray, when I am alone or among others, when I say them aloud or quietly to myself. I thank God He listens to me, even more that He does what is right regardless!
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Relics
Sept 14, 2007 14:07:14 GMT -5
Post by dinadan on Sept 14, 2007 14:07:14 GMT -5
No hurt feelings Just honest responses (which are always good). That said, there are many texts in the Scriptures (some of these are in the "longer canon" of the Eastern Church--but not all) regarding prayer for the dead, as well as asking the departed Saints for intercession. I. Prayers for the Dead: Tobit 12:12; 2 Macc 12:39-45; 1 Cor 15:29; 2 Tim 1:16-18. II. Dead Saints Are Aware of Earthly Affairs: Mt 22:30 w/ Lk 15:7,10 & 1 Cor 4:9; Heb 12:1. III. Dead Saints Intercede For Those On Earth: Jer 15:1; 2 Macc 15:14; Rev 6:9-10. IV. Intercessory Prayer of Saints and Angels: Tobit 12:12-15; Rev 5:8 and 8:3-4. In Christ is indeed the one mediator of the new covenant between God and men--however, to say that he is the sole intercessor is mistaken. We ask each other for intercession when we ask another Christian to pray for us. Because Christ has overthrown Death, those who die in Christ have victory through him; there is one body of Christ, and those that are in that body live forever. It is not logical to assume that you can ask a man to pray for you one day, then, he dies the next, not to imagine that he can still pray for you--if, of course, you accept that Christ is telling the truth when he says that we have eternal life in him. But the point is, if you truly believe that Christ alone is your one intercessor, then you are sinning by asking another to pray for you.
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