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Post by lovehound on Nov 13, 2005 5:22:54 GMT -5
amodman wrote:
Your point is very confusing here. You're trying to connect pagan-inspired elements to the holiday with the religious elements which are, in most cases, completely seperate. Carols, a tree, Santa - all that is society, not Christianity.
My response:
Christianity took those symbols over from European heathens and claimed them for their own religious holiday. My b/f made a statement about this: "It's like if someone comes up to you while you're sitting in your car at a red light and hauls you out of your car at gunpoint and drives it off and claims it as their own car."
amodman:
Also, I don't know what country you've been living in, but I've been living in the one where the last few years ordinances have been being passed out left and right about having to display a menorah and/or kwanza representation if you display a Christmas tree (being because more minorities are observing these holidays).
My response:
I live in Florida. We don't have those ordinances. But I like them. Maybe I'll write to the Florida legislature and suggest we do the same. Because maybe it's time Christians felt the pinch and the frustration of having their holiday blown off the way other holidays have been done by Christianity all this time. Sort of a "now you know how WE have felt at YOUR hands" kind of thing.
amodman:
Finally, I don't know if you were saying the Bible was false or that the date of Christmas was false at the end there, but either/or the fact remains that the Christmas was placed on its date rather than being observed for it's actual date. There is no actual date other than some rough estimations of around September I've heard, and even so, what's December like in Israel anyway? Where else would they keep the sheep?
My response:
Remember, Christ was born in Palestine, not Israel. He was a Palestinian Jew. So far as I know, nights in Palestine in Dec. are very cold. But yes, the current date of Christmas was chosen very late in Christianity's history. Most people don't realize this.
I don't concern myself with Passover either.
My point basically is: Jul is the REAL reason for the season, it always has been, and it's time people acknowledged it. To be perfectly blunt, I DO get tired of people assuming I celebrate Christmas and giving me Christmas cards and asking me if I've done my Christmas shopping and all that.
Here's an example: my b/f got me a lovely teak Buddha right at the time my father passed away in January. I was quite broken up, and something in my found comfort in Lord Buddha's serene presence (and Doctrine of Impermanence). I'm not limited to finding inspiration in just one path, you see. So I took this Buddha to my office and he sits on my desk, to the left of my computer monitor, next to a photo of me with my dad. One of my coworkers came up to me and pointed to the Buddha and said, "Why do you have that evil god on your desk?" She's a Christian. I said, "I don't have an evil god on my desk." She argued with me, "That's an evil god!" I said, "Have you even bothered to read anything about Buddhism? Apparently not, because if you had, you'd realize he never claimed to be a god!" She wouldn't give up. "But Buddhists worship him!" Argh. "No, they don't worship him. They pay homage to the Dharma, his teachings, and they respect him, but they don't worship him as such."
This is the kind of thing people like me get so very tired of.
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Post by dinadan on Nov 13, 2005 9:27:13 GMT -5
St. John XIII:1 "Now beofre the feast of passover, when Jesus knew his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto to the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end."
St. Luke XXII:1 "Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the passover."
St. Luke XXII:8 "And he {Jesus} sent Peter and John, saying, 'Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat."
St. Luke XXII:13-20 details the institution of the Eucharist, which the context makes clear that he did during the celebration of the passover feast.
St. Mark XIV:1-2 "After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavend bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought to take him {Jesus} by craft, and put him to death. But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar in the temple."
St Mark XIV:22-25 agrees with Luke XXII:13-20 that Christ instituted the Eucharist (which we are commanded to observe) at the passover feast.
St. Matthew XXVI:2 is even more explicit in that Jesus himself says "Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified."
St. Matthew XXVI:26-29 is another account of the institution of the Eucharist, again given in the context of the passover feast.
and arguing for Sunday St. Luke XXIV:1 "Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, brinign the spices which they had prepared and certain others with them"
Sunday was the first day of the week.
As for the day of the week--well, it all depends on the year which Jesus died. It is conceiveable that in one of the years in contention it worked out for passover to fall on a Thursday. Anyone who studies antiquity will tell you that establishing firm dates is well-nigh impossible--because, in this text alone, we're looking at someone imposing Julian calendar (of the early church) onto the Jewish calendar (which is lunar!), then trying to interpret that into a Gregorian calendar model. You're never going to know for sure. So, church tradition says it was a Sunday, then by all means let's say it was a Sunday. (Incidentally, Jesus couldn't have risen on the Sabbath since we're told that they had to quickly prepare his body before the sabbath--which means, the sabbath was the day following his crucifixion. He rose the next day, the day after the Sabbath. It's there by implication.)
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Post by dinadan on Nov 13, 2005 10:04:58 GMT -5
Not exactly the same. I won't deny that Charlemagne did a little converstion at sword-point. And I won't deny that Christmas--as it is celebrated--is almost wholly a Western Christianity phenomenon. However, ALL religions synchrotize; all of them. Continuation of cult, even within a context of a new religion, occurs everywhere, not just within Christianity. The reason for this is simple; you dont' mess with tradition. If people are used to the winter solstice being a feast day, then they are going to want to continue to celebrate on it. So you give them a feast day. That isn't to say that Christmas was tacked on to a pagan holiday--well, not like it was cobbled together to fill the void. It existed. We know it existed PRIOR to the conversion of the Germans (because it's on the calendar in Eastern Christianity as well). It just happens to coincide with the yule holiday, which explains why Christmas is given preeminance in the Western Christianity, while it is a relatively minor holy day in Eastern Christianity. Religions adapt to serve cultural contexts. That doesn't make them any less valid.
Well, that's just silly. You obviously have trouble sorting out Justice from vengence. You seem to think that Christianity has wronged you because your religious ideas aren't given the same kind of treatment. Well, you live in a society that believes that the rule of the majority is the rule. Now, to keep the majority from infringing upon you, we give you certain rights. You have the right to follow any religion you want, and not to be compelled to follow that of the majority. That is Just. When you say things like "maybe it's time Christians felt the pinch and the frustration of having their holiday blown off the way other holidays have been done by Christianity all this time. Sort of a 'now you know how WE have felt at YOUR hands" kind of thing.' "--that is not Justice but vengence; you feel you've been wronged and you want to wrong the person that wronged you. An eye for an eye, blah blah blah. You should be glad you don't live in a society where the "eye for an eye" maxim is the rule--everytime you wronged someone (even unintentionally) you'd be subject to their vengence.
What the devil are you talking about? Neither Palastine nor Israel were the names used to describe the place of Jesus' birth. He was born in JUDEA, which was at the time a client-kingdom of Rome being ruled by the Hasmonean dynasty. That area that used to be called Judea was later called Palastine, and then most of it was given over to the Jews in 1948 AD for the creation of a national Jewish state, called Israel.
The date of Christmas comes no later than a lot of the dates in Chrsitianity. Christmas was, as best we can tell, a celebration of the Church in the 300s AD. ((Of course, to even say "the Church" like it was a single entity is misleading. The Church has never been a completely homogenous whole, but that's another discussion)). You'll note that, as I alluded to earlier, the conversion of the Germans didn't occur until almost 100 years later, and even then all of them were Arians (a heretical form of Christianity). The conversion to an orthodox verion of the Christian faith among the Germans didn't occur until 496 when Clovis I the king of the Franks converted from Arianism to Catholicism. AND, it wasn't until the 780s that Charlemagne converted the Saxons (whose jul you celebrate) by force. History doesn't back up your claim.
As far as the significance of passover, I hit that in my reponse to amodman.
Christmas has become a secular holiday, that just happens to coincide with a religious one. Christmas is now the time in which we celebrate our freedom by going deep into debt to give people we know things that they don't need. It also is a time of observing certain social niceties...like the sending of cards to people you know, to ensure that they know that you are a nice person. I don't agree with it, but that's how it is. It has nothing to do with forcing you to observe their religious holiday. Burn the cards, use the fruit cakes for doorstops, and donate all the extra sweaters you get to Goodwill. Small talk is small talk; don't get offended by it just because you choose to remove yourself from the cultural norm.
Ignorance is sad, but it isn't a crime. I pray for those who are ignorant. Because I choose to be a Christian doesn't mean that I have the right to choose what other people believe. That's fine with me. But when you choose to go outside your cultural norms (and, I know whereof I speak--you can ask many of the members here who will tell you that ol' dinadan is way in left field when it comes to politics, society, and to an extent religion) there are consequences. It's hard not to be bitter, and its hard not to think that you have the corner of the market on truth because you feel so much more enlightened than the people around you. Being a Christian, I counter that tendency to be an arrogant closet aristocrat through prayer.
I sincerely hope that I haven't offended you. I just thought that you were making some wild claims that needed a bit of counterbalancing.
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Post by lovehound on Nov 13, 2005 17:37:23 GMT -5
Dinadan wrote:
The date of Christmas comes no later than a lot of the dates in Chrsitianity. Christmas was, as best we can tell, a celebration of the Church in the 300s AD. ((Of course, to even say "the Church" like it was a single entity is misleading. The Church has never been a completely homogenous whole, but that's another discussion)). You'll note that, as I alluded to earlier, the conversion of the Germans didn't occur until almost 100 years later, and even then all of them were Arians (a heretical form of Christianity). The conversion to an orthodox verion of the Christian faith among the Germans didn't occur until 496 when Clovis I the king of the Franks converted from Arianism to Catholicism. AND, it wasn't until the 780s that Charlemagne converted the Saxons (whose jul you celebrate) by force. History doesn't back up your claim.
My response:
Actually my spiritual practice is more Norse than Saxon.
Dinadan:
Christmas has become a secular holiday, that just happens to coincide with a religious one. Christmas is now the time in which we celebrate our freedom by going deep into debt to give people we know things that they don't need.
My response:
I have to admit that in the years before I became a Heathen I gave up on that. I've worked in retail on the busiest shopping day of the year, and it just struck me as the complete antithesis of everything spiritual that in complete disgust I walked away from it.
Dinadan:
It also is a time of observing certain social niceties...like the sending of cards to people you know, to ensure that they know that you are a nice person. I don't agree with it, but that's how it is. It has nothing to do with forcing you to observe their religious holiday.
My response:
Alas, but I get it all the time, it is true - people in my office giving me cards that say Merry Christmas, because that IS what they celebrate, but if I create my own cards (I'm a calligrapher and often get blank cards to write my own message in) that say Happy Jultide and give those out, people utterly lose their minds and act like it's such an odd thing, to celebrate something other than Christmas. I say it's them that needs to get over it. This world is big enough for everyone.
Not only that, but the city of Orlando uses public funds to purchase Christmas decorations; when you drive down Orange Avenue in downtown Orlando, they have this huge yellow star suspended between two buildings, one on the east side and one on the west side of Orange Avenue, supported by an elaborate artificial evergreen garland. On each lamppost is an artificial Christmas tree. Pretty neutral in and of themselves, but there's this question to be asked: why does the city council not approve to spend public money on Beltane (May Day) decorations, to use that as an example? Why is that holiday singled out above all others? There may be others, but this is what I know.
That's where the biggest problem comes in, really. I have to admit, I had similar problems when I noticed the South Carolina license plate now says "IN GOD WE TRUST" on the top in gold letters; hang on a minute, there are taxpaying, non-God believing South Carolina residents out there. Why do they have to have this message on the back of their private vehicles, because the state requires drivers to have these plates in order to legally drive them? That's crossing a line of separation of church and state, which is where the biggest complaints come in. It's far more serious than coworkers in a private office like mine.
Although now that I think of it -- considering that I don't celebrate Christmas, why do I need to take those days off from work? Why are banks closed when I might need to go there and make deposits or whatever? Why are schools closed (I don't have children, but if I did, I'd have to keep them at home because in observance of Christmas, school would be closed)? Why are so many businesses shut down and therefore in many cases I can't go dine out or see a movie or do anything I want to do because in observance of Christmas, most things are closed? This is the culture forcing me to acknowledge this holiday that I don't celebrate; mine is the week before, so why shouldn't everyone else be inconvenienced for my holiday? I'm using part of my vacation time that week so I can hold vigil at the local UU church all night on the night of the Solstice. I should just have that time off from my job and not have it cut into my vacation time.
We don't even go through all this for Hannukah, and there's far more Jews out there than Heathens. Shouldn't their holiday be recognized as well? Theirs lasts 8 days. Jul lasts 12. Hell, we should have the entire MONTH off, to include Diwali (a Hindu celebration) and Kwanzaa (the African holiday)!
Just because the majority celebrates Christmas, ALL of us who aren't Christians have to be subject to this?
I hardly call THAT fair. Things have been entirely too unbalanced in favor of Christmas for far too long. When WAS the last time a city put up Hannukah decorations using public funds? I don't think it's ever happened; why not? Is that holiday less worthy because this country (the US) was founded by Protestants? Of course not. But so many people assume this is a Christian nation (and having grown up in Washington DC, you'll never convince ME it is - I say it's not, never has been and never will be) so therefore we do things in the Protestant Christian way. (There's also a lot of anti-Catholic sentiment in this country too - an Australian friend of mine can't figure out what pole got shoved up so many Americans' backsides, because she's noticed the aggressive manner in which Protestants will attack Catholics and say rude things about her church and her way of worshiping Christ.)
This country, for a pluralistic society, has a lot of learning to do as to how to accomodate so many different people of so many different spiritual paths - or even none at all.
Dinadan:
use the fruit cakes for doorstops
My response:
And waste good fruitcake? Now come on, you can't tell me that a hot cup of coffee and a slice of fruitcake isn't a rare treat. Hey, if people are going to make treats, I'll eat them. *g*
Unless they contain coconut. Gaaaaag.
Actually, in truth, I think this year I'm going to request no one give me any gifts for my birthday or Christmas/Jul at all. Instead, I think I'd like to have people make donations to the American Diabetes Association, since it was diabetes that claimed my father's life. That's a gift that keeps on giving to people who badly need it.
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Post by dinadan on Nov 13, 2005 17:54:39 GMT -5
Same cultural root.
Ok, here again: if the majority of the people in Orlando want the city to put up decorations (and the ones you listed off are pretty neutral), then what's the problem?
I know what Beltane is, and I celebrate it--syncrotized as the coronation of the Virgin. But I don't think it would be sensible for a city or town--unless it had a HUGE pagan population--to spend public money on May Day decorations.
Asking for donations to a charity is a good idea--very noble. As far as fruit cake goes--very rarely do I get a good one (and those only come from grandma). Most people's fruit cakes are terrible.
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Post by twyrch on Nov 13, 2005 19:25:32 GMT -5
What bothers me is that everything has to be so dang politically correct these days. If I want to wish someone a merry christmas, then by God, I'm going to do it. If they want to wish me a happy Winter Solstice, Beltain... whathaveyou, then GREAT. I don't get bent out of shape about it... it's the freakin' thought that counts. People are wishing you a happy holiday. They are giving you a blessing, in a sense. Just accept it for what it is and move on. Life's too short. We have now successfully taken a thread by a forum member (who has the same rights as anyone else on these boards) to discuss how they are looking forward to Christmas and can't believe it is coming up so fast... To arguing over which religion gets it right, which religion stole the holiday from another religion and how the U.S. is "forcing" people to celebrate holidays they don't want to. Congratulations. Oh, and a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone on the boards.  |
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Post by dinadan on Nov 13, 2005 19:54:17 GMT -5
Yeah, twyrch, you've got a point. We shouldn't have co-opted this for a rant.
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Zeke
Mabinog
[M:505]
Underpaid Gost Man
Posts: 162
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Post by Zeke on Nov 14, 2005 16:06:50 GMT -5
Oh and one more point Prov. 14:23 "In all labor there is profit, But mere talk leads only to poverty."
No one is going to change their mind so why argue it will only get heated. I had many other points to make but will leave them off due to the verse above.
Merry CHRISTMASS
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Post by Hinata on Nov 16, 2005 11:24:57 GMT -5
More to the point of this post. . .the commercialization of all of these holidays. . .I don't care what you say. ..I'm sick of it already. . .I'm sick of people who think they have to go shopping the day after Thanksgiving and who think if they don't wait until the last possible moment to buy all of their Holiday presents and then expecting everyone to have a whole bunch of presents. Honestly, whatever happened to good old family time? That's all I want for Christmas is to be with my family because they are the ones I love the most and the dearest. . .so do we have to have some many stupid stores with so many stupid Christmas/Hannakah/Kwanza/etc. celebrations? Why not throw out the commerialization and get at the heart of what these holidays REALLY mean?
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Post by Dred on Nov 17, 2005 11:34:29 GMT -5
Ahem.
This thread has shown me that a reminder needs to be given to people to watch your language. Swearing or implied swearing is against the rules.
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Post by chrystalized on Nov 17, 2005 13:13:55 GMT -5
Amen!
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Post by Gwalchmai on Nov 17, 2005 15:39:26 GMT -5
I think thats quickly becoming one of the new trials of Christmas. To over look the commercialization and celebrate the holiday that we all feel it should be celebrated as.
What tends to bother me abouyt all this, is we see a flooding of christmas tales that show good will and love toward others... why do we have to label such deeds in association with a single day in the year? Why can't people just carry on that attitude throughout the whole year? I mean I'm sure some people do but the implication is still there I feel.
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Post by Hinata on Nov 18, 2005 1:53:36 GMT -5
Hear! Hear! I think we need to be better individuals and try to living this philosophy all year around. . .I know I slip at times. . .I'm not perfect, so I'm working with the rest of mankind when I say we do, but we DO! Let's be better humans for change!
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Twyrch /|\
