The Cele De and Chrsitianity

[da5id]

Hi all. This is my first post on the forum here.
I've been reading Mr Lawheads books for the past few months. I really enjoyed his Pendragon Cycle and the Song of Albion cycle.

However, I've just read The Iron Lance and am just beginning The Black Rood, and I'm not really sure where h'es coming from as far as Christianity is concerned. I guess I'm talking about this Cele De group. I've looked it up on the net HERE and it's a bit worrying.

It says stuff like -

The path of the Céile Dé is and always has been toward a search for the Ultimate Reality - Union with the Divine. Rooted in Druidism, it has a deep reverence for our Mother Earth and all Her children…[...] It also involves a development of the imaginal faculties through creative study of Celtic mythology and the Gods and Goddesses of the Gaelic pantheon

Historically, they were known for their insistence on leading a spiritual life free from all but two vows - obedience to their Anam Cara (soul-friend and spiritual guide) and obedience to the voice that spoke from the deepest part of their hearts... the Christ within.

Spiritual Guide? That sounds a little bit New Age-y to me. I don't think I'm comfortable with this kind of 'druidic' Christianity.
I don't mind druid stuff so much in fiction, but I'm not really sure what kind of message Stephen is trying to send, or whether he favours this kind of Christianity. It may be confusing to some...

[Child of Immanuel]

Welcome to the forum!

I don't know if Ceile De Christianity was always like that; at least, Lawhead doesn't paint them that way. You're right that the modern version seems to have lost the way.

[Dred]

The modern version is a far cry from what Lawhead presents in the books. I think he based his on more historical accounts rather than the way things are now.

[Paladin]

My impression from reading those books (and thanks for starting this thread, da5id) was that the Cele De were a lot like modern Protestantism in their doctrine. Whatever they've become today, I don't know, been meaning to research the group since I read SRL's writings on them.

[Child of Immanuel]

The one thing I don't like about the Cele De in some of Lawhead's books (Patrick mostly) is that druidry is practiced along with Christianity. Smacks of witchcraft to me.

[da5id]

Child, yes I get that impression as well. That bit in Iron Lance when Emlyn and Murdo are trying not to be seen so Emlyn draws a mystic circle in the dirt to make themselves invisible, and when they don't need it anymore he has to rub part of the circle away before they can step out...
Praying to God for help is one thing but drawing a circle on the ground seems a bit druidic.

Ok, I don't mind druid stuff in books as long as it's not supposed to be CHristian.

And I think Emlyn says somewhere that the Cele De are the only ones practicing "true" Christianity (the "path" I think he calls it) and infers that all the other churches aren't really following this true path. There were a few things like that, that makes me stop and go, "hmmmm".

[Paladin]

Good point... perhaps a more learned reader or Mr. Lawhead himself can point us in the direction of educational material on this topic.

[twyrch]

Just to set the record straight here... Druidry is not a religion... it is a spiritual path. I am a Christian-Druid and unless you all think I am a hethen, devil-worshipper, you may want to re-evaluate your stance on this.

Druidry is open to all religions because it is free of dogma, predudice and intolerance (unlike the majority of Christians today). I think SRL is trying to get a point across... that the ancient druids may have had pagan roots, but many of their ideas and ideals parrallel that of Christ's teachings.

Ghandi once said, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."

What kind of Christians are we if we denegrate and demonize those who believe differently than we do? Aren't we to show the love of Christ in all things? Is God simply an overlord who watches from above or can his essence be found in nature and in the world around us?

Seeking a spiritual connection to nature does not mean you worship nature. It merely means you have found a connection with God's creation. For me, becoming a druid has been a very rewarding experience and the more I learn, the closer I draw to God, through nature.

As for the spirit guides, they are animals who take different forms based on the person, need and circumstances of the vision quest. You can call it "New Age" if you want, but the fact is that you are simply entering into a meditative state to find answers within yourself that for whatever reason have been hidden from you. To the non-iniate, this may sound strange, but really what is the difference between a spirit guide and Jiminy Cricket? Both are an animal manifestation of your own conscience.

I would encourage all of you to investigate SRL's writings a little closer and you will see ties to Druidry in almost all of his books.... Patrick, The King Ravin Trilogy, The Song of Albion, The Pendragon Cycle.... I believe SRL has learned a great deal about Druidry and is incorporating his new-found knowledge into his writings to help others realize that Druidry isn't some satanic cult to be avoided, but a spiritual path to be studied with discernment.

[twyrch]

Here's a thread Bard Child started a while back on the Cele De.

stephenlawhead.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1160321332

[Child of Immanuel]

You seem very defensive about this, Jer, and I hope I wasn't unnecessarily offensive to you. About what you said--I have no problem with worshiping God through nature, nor would I have had a problem with evangelizing druids through their points of similarity with the gospel. I do have a problem with meditation and with spirit guide animals. Can you show me where such practices are encouraged in the Bible?

[twyrch]

Sorry, CoI, if I seem a little defensive about this, but some of the comments in this thread really struck a cord with me. I've found that many people who turn to other religions do so because of Christians.

To quote Brennan Manning, "The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."

Now, I have participated in meditation techniques and there is nothing dangerous about it at all. It's a way of finding peace within yourself... of calming your spirit and listening to the voice of wisdom inside you... For me, this is when I can hear God talking me the most clearly.

I believe the Bible supports meditation, although not by that name. "Be still, and know that I am God" - Psalm 46:10... Be Still... what does that mean? Well, I could do a complete exegesis on this topic, but to me it mean to quiet my heart and listen for God's leading. One of the best ways I've found to quiet my heart is through meditation. Even the term "quiet your heart" is used by pastors during communion when they ask people to "bow their heads and quiet their hearts as they pray".

Jesus, in the garden, spent 3 hours in intense prayer. The Bible doesn't say exactly what he was doing, besides praying, but don't you think he would have been quieting his own heart and seeking God's will? Even the few words of his prayer tell us that much. Meditation has been made into a taboo word by Mainstream Christianity, but I believe it is an important part of our life in drawing closer to God.

As far as spirit guides go, like I said, they are representations of our own psyche to help us understand things which are hidden from us or things we are hiding from ourselves.

John 16:13 "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

Has anyone see the spirit of truth? Is that a physical being? Or is this the Holy Spirit? If so, how do you talk to the Holy Spirit? What form does he take? Who are we to say that some other culture or religion's way of communing with the Holy Spirit is better or worse than our own? Personally, I don't see the problem with it, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the subject. As the resident druid here, I just wanted to throw in my 2-cents.

[Child of Immanuel]

I'm sorry if I sounded judgmental at first. Maybe you could explain to me a little more about meditation. From the information I have at the moment, I don't like the sound of it, but I would appreciate more information.

[DanTheMan]

I don't know too much about meditation but I don't have a problem with it provided one's thoughts are centered on God. I don't see any need for animal guides as we can have such a close relationship with Jesus Christ, our brother. Meditation should be filled with prayer and finding peace.
I also don't know what it's like being a druid. I like some things about how Lawhead write druids as seeking truth and seeking the Christ. I can appreciate that. I don't care for some of the "magic" things like drawing circles of protection and stuff.
Visions might be ok, I don't know. I tend to think that God speaks to us in different ways and who am I to say that God can't give people visions.
Oh, and I don't have a problem with appreciated nature. No, it shouldn't be worshiped. And it isn't a way to God. But God did create it and it is beautiful.

I may not agree with some things that Lawhead writes, but he sure does write a good story!

[twyrch]

DanTheMan, I think I would agree with most of what you said regarding meditation. God works in many wonderful and strange ways, and if meditation and spirit guides is the only way for him to communicate his will to some people, in a way they will understand and accept, then who are we to tell God he's doing it wrong? LOL!

You're also right that Lawhead writes about Druids seeking truth. Here is a short excerpt on Druid Ethics from OBOD's Website. When I first found OBOD, I realized that I had no quarrels with any of their ethics or ideals.

Druid Ethics and Beliefs

The classical author Strabo wrote that the Druids studied ‘moral philosophy’. The author Brendan Myers concludes that the first moral principle of the ancient Druids was a devotion to truth. In the Testament of Morann, a document traced to the period between the 7th and 9th centuries CE, but which seems to emerge out of the pre-Christian Druidic period, advice is given on how a prince should rule:

Let him magnify Truth, it will magnify him.
Let him strenghen Truth, it will strengthen him.
….Through the ruler's Truth massive mortalities are averted from men.
…Through the ruler's Truth all the land is fruitful and childbirth worthy.
Through the ruler's Truth there is abundance of tall corn.

St Patrick was said to have asked Oisin, the son of Fionn MacCumhall, what sustained his people before the advent of Christianity, to which he replied: “the truth that was in our hearts, and strength in our arms, and fulfilment in our tongues.” Myers concludes: ‘It is interesting that he should cite truth first, as though truth had an overriding place in the culture. This evidence leads me to believe that the first moral principle of Druidism is this: in a situation where a moral decision must be made, we should always choose truth, in the expansion and enrichment of human knowledge, in ourselves and others, and at all levels of our being.’

In the final analysis, though, Myers suggests that the Druids may not have adhered to specific rules and authorities to determine proper ethical conduct. Instead he sees them striving to become a certain kind of person, out of whom ethical behaviour naturally arises.

Athelia Nihtscada also turns to Irish source material to explore Druid ethics. The old Brehon laws, which were recorded by Christian clerics in the 5th century CE, pre-dated Christianity and offer a fascinating insight into early Irish society. By studying these laws and seeing how they might be applicable to modern living, Nihtscada has articulated eleven principles or codes of conduct for the contemporary Druid:

1. Every action has a consequence that must be observed and you must be prepared to compensate for your actions if required.
2. All life is sacred and all are responsible for seeing that this standard is upheld.
3. You do still live in society and are bound by its rules.
4. Work with high standards.
5. Make an honest living.
6. Be a good host as well as a good guest.
7. Take care of yourself. (Health was held in high esteem amongst the Celts, so much that a person could be fined for being grossly overweight due to lack of care.)
8. Serve your community.
9. Maintain a healthy balance of the spiritual and mundane.
(Nihtscad writes: ‘Ethical and self respecting Druids did nothing without being properly schooled or aware of the consequences ahead of time. They knew when it was appropriate to visit the Otherworld and immerse themselves in the spiritual as well as when it was appropriate to be fully in this world.’)
10. Uphold the Truth, starting with yourself.
11. Be sure in your convictions, particularly when judging or accusing someone, but also when debating. Ask yourself: are you really sure? Do you really know that this the case?

Apart from the work of Myers and Nihtscad, little has been written about ethics in contemporary Druidism since most Druids are keen to avoid the problems caused by dictating a morality to others. So much suffering has resulted throughout history because one group of people have decided that it is good to do one thing and bad to do another. Just as most Druids have avoided dictating which type of theology someone should adopt, so too have they avoided telling each other, or the world, how to behave.

Nevertheless, most Druids have a highly developed sense of ethical behaviour, which is usually implicit in their actions, rather than being explicitly stated by them. A person can only act ethically if they hold to certain values, and by talking about these values we can avoid the pitfall of suggesting ethical guidelines which can then so easily turn into a dogma which condemns those who do not follow it. Instead of imposing a code of conduct upon people, we can return to Myers’ suggestion to practice a Druidry that helps us become a certain kind of person, out of whom ethical behaviour naturally arises.

[twyrch]

childofimmanuel said:

I'm sorry if I sounded judgmental at first. Maybe you could explain to me a little more about meditation. From the information I have at the moment, I don't like the sound of it, but I would appreciate more information.

No worries, CoI. I wasn't offended or anything. I just wanted to set the record straight and, if possible, clear up the misconceptions about druids and Druidry.

Now, a meditation can take many forms... intense prayer is a meditation. Druids use a technique called a Light Body Exercise where you calm your spirit, quiet your heart and imagine your body bathed in white light.

For me, this white light is God's peace and love. It fills me, cleanses me, and removes the worry, stress, anger and pain I have in my life.

I never shared this with anyone but the mods here, but the first half of this year was VERY stressful. My grandma died on Christmas Eve, we lost our baby in January, my dad had a psychotic break in February and my great-uncle died from a heart attack. In march, Dawn's uncle died of cancer and my great-uncle's lung collapsed, causing him to die the day we burried her uncle. My grandpa died in May and my company tried to get me fired for taking too much time for funerals, even though I used vacation and bereavement.

The LBE came in very helpful in calming me and giving me peace. I would have been a nervous wreck if I hadn't found a way to commune with God and receive his peace in such a close and personal way.

I hope that answers some of your questions regarding meditation.