Arthur/Reincarnation in "Avalon"

[donsmith]

Hey there:

I was thinking about the book "Avalon" and I have to say I did not think Lawhead did a really great job explaining how Arthur returned. By every definition it looked as if Arthur reincarnated and I remember him and Merlin discussing the issue. It seemed neither of them believed in reinacarnation, but how in the world was Arthur born, raised, and it not be reincarnation.

I was wondering if Lawhead or anyone else ever explained it?

Thanks,
Don Smith

[Gwalchmai]

I thought he did do a good job with it myself but then I'm aware of a bit more outside information than the book gives out. There is a legend that Arthur and his Knights lay under a mound in England somewhere in wait for when they are needed again. It is said that a blonde haired youth will discover the opening and then picking up a horn, shall awaken the sleeping King and his warriors.

Now obviously thats not what really happened here but the idea is similar I think in the sense that its not the soul of the King thats been reborn to reflourish but rather an old soul re-emerging from a deep slumber. Later on, that idea is referenced by James himself when he explains that some of his "flashbacks" was more returning memories than fading de-ja-vus. So I guess, try to think of it as Arthur gaining a new body to continue the battle for the Summer Kingdom and not a new Arthur being created to establish the realm of summer if that makes sense.

[donsmith]

Hey there:

Thanks for responding. However, I am afraid your comment left me as much in the dark as Lawhead's did.

Taking your "old soul slumbering" motif it raises a bunch of questions - Where was it slumbering? And how did it get put into the body of James?

And that aside - how is an old soul entering the embryo of James not reincarnation?

I mean if Lawhead wants to say, "Hey it's reincarnation." Fine, but it would be antithetical to his Christian views and at the same time, I think there just needed to be a deeper explanation.

You said "think of it as Arthur gaining a new body" - again I ask - how is that not reincarnation?

I actually had this idea for comic book where Arthur returns, but the twist is Merlin held his soul in some sort of case if you will. When Merlin found the right circumstances and the right people to raise a new Arthur he said "Here!"

And the soul of Arthur was put into the mother's womb so when the next time the parents conceived - Arthur.

My reasoning that it was not reincarnation is because it is not like "It was the cosmos or fate placing Arthur's soul at random, but it was Merlin himself doing it."

Also, considering if the TH White tail's are true, technically isn't Arthur in Avalon now? So it would be hard for him to die.


Thanks again.

[Gwalchmai]

Well my personal interpritation of reincarnation is something akin to a second chance. You don't have your old memories or emotions or w/e so that you grow into your current environment. In James' case in the book, he is still molded by his experiences from his life as Arthur as well as his up bringing as James. At least thats what I tell myself when I read Avalon

TH White's books, while interesting, I wouldn't base my Arthurian knowledge on that. And if I recall, Arthur was taken there for healing and not as a resting place so I don't think he would just be hanging out there till he deemed it best to eneter again the realm of man... and woman =P

[donsmith]

Okay:

I was hoping I would get more of a response. Anyone out there have any inkling what SRL was getting at with bringing Arthur back in Avalon without it being reincarnation?

Thanks,
Don

[Child of Immanuel]

I just remembered the scene in Pendragon where Myrddin has a vision of Cai and Bedwyr and the rest sleeping until it was time to be called forth. Perhaps Arthur was put to sleep for a while and awakened, but not given his memories back until later.

[Merlin]

do you have a page reference for that? i seem to recall it, but i cant remember where

[Gwalchmai]

In the book Pendragon on the return trip to Britain with the irish warriors. Merlin goes into a trance and meets his father and his wife who shows him the sleeping Champions of Britain.

[Merlin]

oh yes, i remember

[dgan]

I think he leaves it vague on purpose to allow each to draw their own conclusions. Something I've always found interesting is the exchange that goes something like:

"Arthur isn't even my real name."
"It wasn't then either."

This represents to me that Arthur was less of a person, but more of an ideal or character personified. Meaning that perhaps there was no actual reincarnation of Arthur's spirit. Perhaps there was no Arthur at all. Just an ideal (conjured by Merlin, of course) personified in a specific person.

I know that's a bit abstract...difficult for me to explain this late at night. Hopefully you get my just.

[chrystalized]

I just finished Avalon a few days ago and the same quote stuck out to me. I had been a bit confused as well as to how he reappeared in history. I liked the way that Embries put it. He said that maybe his soul was given renewed expression because its purpose was unfullfilled.
I am not sure if that helps, but it satisfied me

[Caledvwlch]

Perhaps sometimes we should let the mystery rest and simply let it be. Of course there's no logical way for Arthur to return. That's why it's so fascinating.

[Treskillard]

I've always thought of it as just Lawhead's desire to have Arthur come back in the modern world, and it was the only way to do it besides a hokey coming out of the mist with sword and shield. What he has done is much more believable, as I would guess that the modern British would not accept someone not in the royal line. However the reincarnation stigma is there, and so I think he just skirted around it, because it wasn't his point. His point was to make a fun novel.