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Post by dinadan on Feb 5, 2005 18:01:38 GMT -5
Charles Williams wrote a bunch of poems about Arthur from the point of view of Taliessin (imagining him to be the court poet). The books are really good, Taliessin Through Logres and The Region of the Summer Stars, they are just a little hard to find. He also has a book about the Holy Grail called War in Heaven, which is just about as fantastic as Lawhead's books. If you are into Arthur at all, you owe it to yourself to try to find William's Taliessin poems.
BTW, Williams was a friend of C. S. Lewis, and often met with him, Tolkien, Owen Barfield & co.--the "Inklings"--to discuss their work.
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Post by Riothamus on Feb 5, 2005 18:18:19 GMT -5
...and, as a matter of fact (or trivia?) one of the characters in That Hideous Strength reads out of Taliesin through Logres. (I haven't read Williams, yet.... He's on my "one day" list.  ) |
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Post by dinadan on Feb 5, 2005 18:41:06 GMT -5
Actually, that's how I got turned on to Williams in the first place--I found out Taliessin... wasn't a fake book.
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Post by dinadan on Feb 6, 2005 19:57:33 GMT -5
Since you mentioned it, I went back and looked it up. Camilla reads a line from the poem "Mount Badon" where Taliessin's cavalry swoops in and turns the tide of the battle for Arthur against the Saxons. I got to thinking about it, and it's relevance to That Hideous Strength and thought about how it was really fitting because Jane learns what Taliessin's soldiers learned: that true obedience was joyous and helped conquer evil. Hence Jane's coming to St. Anne's helped turn the tide against the NICE.
Also, as another connection, the Fisher-King's household is meant, I believe, to be the remnant of Taliessin's household from William's poems. In The Region of the Summer Stars, the first poem is "The Calling of Taliessin"--and in it, Merlin tells him that if the experiment of Logres fails (i.e if Arthur's kindgom falls), that Taliessin's household will be the remnant necessary to one day bring it back.
That got me to thinking about another passage in That Hideous Strength, where Camilla (who is pregnant) is said to be carrying the future of Logres. It's significant because her husband's name in Arthur Denniston. I think that's significant both because of the first name, but also the surname. It's entirely possible that Lewis used Denniston for it's similarity to "Dinadan," who, in Williams' poetry, is the one knight of the Table that seems to have his head on his shoulders and knows exactly what is going on and why Logres is falling apart. So maybe, just maybe, Camilla and Arthur's child was supposed to represent a new "experiment" in Logres--trying to do it right the second time.
Of course, that's all just wild speculation.
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Post by Riothamus on Feb 7, 2005 10:07:44 GMT -5
That's great. ;D My need to read this fellow has just increased in urgency.
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Post by Child of Immanuel on Feb 8, 2005 18:41:55 GMT -5
I think that's significant both because of the first name, but also the surname. It's entirely possible that Lewis used Denniston for it's similarity to "Dinadan," who, in Williams' poetry, is the one knight of the Table that seems to have his head on his shoulders and knows exactly what is going on and why Logres is falling apart. Or perhaps it bears some relation to dûn-adan... Yes, I am an impossible Tolkien freak! |
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Post by dinadan on Feb 8, 2005 19:18:36 GMT -5
Certainly That Hideous Strength bears the mark of Tolkien; T is, after all, mentioned in the forward. Also, Numenor is mentioned (but misspelled as Numinor), and there is some indication that the "angelic powers" which dominate the supernatural realm of the novel are meant to be the valar and maiar of Tolkien's universe. That being said, there, I'd be more inclined to believe the "Dinadan" line of reasoning for the name of the Dennistons, but just because while Merlin almost inescapably becomes the character through whom Tolkien's ideas become integrated into the novel, the rest of the characters at St. Anne's reflect in many ways a lot of the main characters in William's poetry. For example, Jane (the heroine) is a sort of strange amalgamation of William's Blanchefleur and his Guinevere.
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Post by calixar on Feb 9, 2005 11:17:09 GMT -5
Going back to Williams' Arthurian poems, anybody else here ever got their hands on a copy of the full set? I was quite thrilled to find it in a used bookstore, complete with the portions Lewis completed for Williams after he died.
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Post by dinadan on Feb 9, 2005 11:27:45 GMT -5
I've got an original press run of Taliessin Through Logres, and I recently found (via Alibris) a copy of Arthurian Torso, which contains the complete texts of Taliessin, as well as the poems missing from the cycle that were originally published as The Region of the Summer Stars. The book also has the unfinished prose history of the Arthurian legened by Williams, and Lewis' commentary and criticism on the poem. It is absolutely a must-have for a Williams scholar (or huge fan).
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Post by Taliesin on Feb 17, 2005 21:47:01 GMT -5
I really wanna read this guy...and find out what some of his theology was.
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Post by dinadan on Feb 18, 2005 0:05:52 GMT -5
Oh, it's good stuff, in my opinion; Riothamus would likely disagree, however |
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Post by dinadan on Feb 18, 2005 11:34:24 GMT -5
I really wanna read this guy...and find out what some of his theology was. If you're really interested in his theology, you might want to look at the following: The Descent of the DoveHe Came Down From HeavenWitchcraftand then maybe The Figure of Beatriceand then there's Mary McDermott Shideler's book "The Theology of Romantic Love" which is a study of William's works--and it's good, but you might need to be familiar with his writings in order to get the full effect. |
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Post by Riothamus on Feb 21, 2005 11:40:42 GMT -5
Oh, it's good stuff, in my opinion; Riothamus would likely disagree, however ;D Now I'm determined to get my hands on a copy! |
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Post by dinadan on Feb 21, 2005 12:04:24 GMT -5
;D Now I'm determined to get my hands on a copy! I am sure I will rue the day . |
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Post by Tegid on Apr 25, 2005 1:14:42 GMT -5
Having been a fan of C. S. Lewis for quite a while, and seeing him recommend Williams' writings, I bought the Arthurian books a long time ago. Unfortunately, when I started reading them, I couldn't make heads or tails out of any of it, and I didn't get very far. But then, I wasn't much up on things Arthurian at that time, either.
What can you recommend that someone unacquainted with Williams read to warm up to his writings? Your suggestions may involve other authors. What would prepare me adequately for Taliesin Through Logres and The Region of the Summer Stars?
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