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Post by CynanMachae on Oct 4, 2007 9:59:06 GMT -5
I realize now this statement implies something I did not mean I suspected as much, but I had already posted... thanks for clarifying!  |
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Post by dgan on Oct 7, 2007 9:08:55 GMT -5
Great discussion! (I miss these....) I cannot hope to add anything to such a scholarly discussion...everything said so far is obviously from those much more learned than me. So instead let me twist this a bit, sort of along the lines that karen was going. At what point does the importance of semantics cloud the importance of the undisputed? Hell, by whatever name, is separation from God. That much is not in doubt. Exactly what that means obviously can be interpreted in various ways. But the more important question is, why is it important? One could argue that if the separation from God is the 'torment' that one will experience in Hell, they are already experiencing it if they have not been redeemed. Perhaps this is why more physical metaphors are used to describe Hell...because otherwise it sounds a bit mundane. Even after reading all of what Din and Josh had to say (admittedly, some of it was over my head ), I am still not sure exactly what we KNOW about the physical aspects of Hell. But I do know this: Even unbelievers living right now are not separated from God. Instead, God is the Shepherd constantly calling and trying to guide his sheep back to his fold. Even Hitler, while he was alive, was being sought out by God - not to change his ways, but to change his heart by giving up his entire being to God. Therefore, by my understanding, not Hitler himself experienced true separation from God while on this earth. Therefore, much as it is difficult to describe Heaven (being in the presence of God) is difficult, so is it equally difficult to describe Hell (the true, complete, and final separation from God). Perhaps there is something physical to it...perhaps not. But I think we should be careful not to lose the important absolute truth known about it: Hell is final, and is an indescribable torment. One other little thing that makes my hair stand up when I hear it is the, "Is it fair that God punishes people like that?" God isn't punishing anyone. Just as we have children and give them a free choice to do something with their life or destroy their life, so does God. Whatever happens to us, we have done to ourselves and undeniably deserve it. Whatever God does for us through His grace and mercy is above and beyond what we have ever deserved. God could have allowed us to banish ourselves to Hell (separation from Him) right from the start...but he has sacrificed Himself to give us a Way. He didn't have to do that. We were already on our way to Hell before he stepped in. God isn't punishing anyone...he is giving us the opportunity to turn away from the torment we have freely chosen for ourselves. Again, great discussion! |
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Post by dinadan on Oct 7, 2007 21:08:54 GMT -5
As a matter of fact, my friend, this is precisely what I am arguing that Hell is not.
The semantics do matter when the translation is faulty. Hence, if Hades and Gehenna did not mean the same thing to the Holy Evangelists, the Apostles, or to Christ Himself--translators who treat the two words as describing the same reality are, in fact wrong. Moreover, they've given rise to incorrect thinking about the afterlife, because they have, in effect, altered what the Scriptures say.
What I am saying is, if we accept that God is the ultimate source and sustainer of Life--and by Life, I mean existence, as a whole--then one cannot be separated from God. Ever. To be cut off from God would be to be cut off from that which enables you to exist. You would then fall into non-being; you would cease to exist. This would not be what is commonly thought of as "hell" to those reject the Love of God. Neither would a lingering existence where all you could experience of God is wrath be consistent with what we know of God--namely that He is Love. The experience of Hell, rather, is the continual experience of God's infinite and endless Love by those who reject and hate that Love. It is the same condition that the righteous experience as well, except that they rejoice in the experience of the infinite and endless Love of the Saviour, so the experience is a great one.
This also involves the bodily resurrection, which some here seem to think will not happen to all of humankind, but only to the righteous/believing Christian dead. According to the teaching of St. Paul, as well as the Old Testament prophet, Daniel (quoted in my original post), this is false. All will be resurrected as Christ has vanquished Death and the Grave; it clearly states that some will be resurrected unto shame and everlasting contempt. These are those who reject the Love of Christ as Saviour of mankind, and their eternal torment will be the continual presence of Him they hate. They will experience the terrible goodness of God as terror, and the presence of God, which is described repeatedly in the Scriptures as being 'as fire,' will scorch them because they simply will be incapable of experiencing it in any other way--this is the final state, after the Judgment, which is called throughout the New Testament by the name Gehenna. Until that occurs, the dead still reside in Hades, where they do experience a foretaste of the final state...but, as it is said, it isn't over until its over, and so, while this present life is the arena appointed for the 'working out of our salvation with fear and trembling' (to paraphrase St. Paul), we continually pray for God's mercy for those who died without finding the Truth of Him in this life, so that on the day of dread judgment, all men might be counted worthy to enter into the joy of God's countenance--even if we know that some will not choose to.
As far as what Karen said about using the fear of pain and torment in Hell as a means to getting people in the door of the church, I totally agree that this is wrong. Salvation cannot just be about getting a one-time hell inoculation in the form of a 'salvation experience.' Can we account ourselves saved if our 'love' of Christ is motivated by a desire to escape torment in Hell? It is my opinion that this is not the case; our salvation is about much more than that. It is a desire to love Christ to the point that we freely do as He commands, even knowing that nothing we ever do can make us worthy of his love. It is, in effect, being able to say to Him in all honesty and humility, "I love you so much that even if you do dang me to eternal torment, I will gladly accept it, because it is Your will." Until we can do that--as Abraham did upon Mt. Moriah, or as David prays in Psalm 50 (51 in the Mazoretic text)--then we haven't really gotten very far on the path that leads to salvation, which is nothing more or less than union with God.
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Post by dgan on Oct 7, 2007 23:30:41 GMT -5
I believe this is where the imprecise nature of language, particularly the English language, becomes a distraction. Obviously, you and I are defining 'separation' slightly differently. I agree with you, of course, that as the Creator, all things exist because God exists. So the 'separation' I speak of is not the absence of existence, but rather the absence of presence. Or perhaps more precisely, as you seem to be indicating, the intolerance of presence.
As the Bible cites many times, being in the mere presence of God is a physical torment of sorts to any human, because we are still tainted with sin. By 'separation', I intend to mean (and I think most who use the term in this context do) that sin prevents us from being in God's 'phyiscal' presence (I use that term loosely, of course, but there is a power to God's being which He protects us from in some way during our present time), or prevents us from tolerating or being blessed by God's presence. Therefore, by 'eternal separation', I mean that you shall never again have the opportunity to have that barrier removed. You will live in that torment, whatever it may be, forever.
As for me, I am inclined to believe from my knowledge that the body is rejoined with the spirit to some eternal torment, both spiritually and physically. However, I reiterate that I find the veracity of that to be of little importance when compared to the bigger, more important picture - that eternal damnation is going to torment those in an unimaginable way as they are forever separated from the goodness of God. The nature of that torment is of little consequence, aside from the general interest of increasing one's knowledge of God.
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Post by dinadan on Oct 9, 2007 7:22:14 GMT -5
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