Religion and Stephen Lawhead

[crusader]

So here's my overall deal with Christianity: I consider myself a Christian but I do not attend church. This mostly stems from the fact that I have never been able to find a church without politics in it. I'm not talking about government politics here, but politics inside the church body. I've never been comfortable with that, so I choose not to attend services except on rare occasions. Overall, I try to live by doing the right thing, showing courtesy and patience to others, and believe that we are only saved by the grace of God.

I also don't think its my place to tell others how to live their life. I'm not a fan at all of hellfire and brimstone preaches or condemning people for their beliefs. I think that you can present Christianity to others but should not get all self-righteous if they don't accept it.

[twyrch]

Crusader said:

So here's my overall deal with Christianity: I consider myself a Christian but I do not attend church. This mostly stems from the fact that I have never been able to find a church without politics in it. I'm not talking about government politics here, but politics inside the church body. I've never been comfortable with that, so I choose not to attend services except on rare occasions. Overall, I try to live by doing the right thing, showing courtesy and patience to others, and believe that we are only saved by the grace of God.

I also don't think its my place to tell others how to live their life. I'm not a fan at all of hellfire and brimstone preaches or condemning people for their beliefs. I think that you can present Christianity to others but should not get all self-righteous if they don't accept it.

I agree with this perception. There is a LOT of politics in church. I just stay out of it. I go for the service and leave. I just started going for the first time in 5 years... and even then it's still hit and miss.

One of the greatest Hellfire and Brimstone preachers was my ancestor... Jonathan Edwards. I prefer to let my light shine in things I do and lead by example. I call that being a "silent" witness.

Oh, And Crusader.... Welcome to the boards!

[Taliesin]

Jonathan Edwards? Wow....

crrrazy

I'll post a reply to Crusader later, need to think about it.

[twyrch]

Taliesin said:

Jonathan Edwards? Wow....

crrrazy

I'll post a reply to Crusader later, need to think about it.

Yep.... 3rd cousin, 6 times removed.... For what it's worth.

[thegrimmsleeper]

Twyrch, you're a descendant of Edwards? That's amazing. I still remember learning about his famous sermon, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God and how utterly horrified his parishioners were that day...

I'm told my great-grandfather - who founded several evangelical churches in this area - was a real prominent brimstone preacher. He had the kind of voice that, when he spoke to you, the will to do anything but listen intently just fled.

Not currently attending a church, but we're looking. I'm looking for a church with a rich understanding and abiding respect for church history, and an active social awareness. I came from a Christian Assembly church where no world existed outside of its walls - they were all wrapped up in social gatherings and doing nothing to expound upon the events beseiging our country, doing nothing to grow the membership...basically they sat around and told each other what good Christian people they were and "amen"ed each other. The attendence of the church hasn't changed in ten years - it's the same group, or clique if you will, running the joint.

We're looking at the United Methodist Church and the Anglican Church as two potentials. I think church is necessary because we need to have that fellowship with other believers, to encourage and exalt one another in our faith, to hear the Word of God, and to receive insights and wisdom from each other. The politics can be bad, it's true, and there are cliques and gossip circles just like everywhere else. But I think the benefits outweigh the negative aspects. It's part of being in the world, but not of it. No single denomination is "right" insofar as specifics of doctrine (beyond the commonly accepted notion that Christ is the only way to the Father). There is no perfect earthly church. But we have to do what we can with what we have. Church should be a joyous celebration of God's grace, not a forum to judge and nitpick each other or to boost our egos.

As for SRL's take on Christianity, I've found it very eloquent and poetic. It seems so simple on paper sometimes, I think. He captures the grace and beauty of the faith without cramming it down people's throats. He speaks truly and honestly, and lets the faith stand on its own for what it is. And he won't sugar-coat things to appeal to "Christian" audiences. There's swearing, sex, violence - everything you find in real life. And thus we can see how Christians might behave in these real circumstances. The protagonists are flawed (anyone else want to deck Succat for being so darn self-absorded?), they are real people who we can relate to.

And that fits in with my own lifestyle. I prefer to let people see Christ through me, rather than grabbing them and shaking them and telling them they are going to hell. That sounds very condescending in today's world, and people generally don't respond. Christ always met people where they were - it's something we should also do.

I'm always saddened when people react in surprise that I'm a Christian. They always say, "Wow, you're so tolerant. I never expected you to be a Christian." And that's sad - who should be tolerant if not those who follow a God willing to give us one more last chance, as often as we need it? Patience, tolerance, and love are 3 things every believer should be known for, but so few actually are. I've been feeling a call to ministry lately, and if that is where I end up, I hope I can in some small way change that perception.

Anyway, now I'm the one on the soapbox. But I like this discussion, and I commend everyone for being so respectful. More often than not these kinds of things degenerate into some kind of flame war. Kudos, it shows this community has wisdom and maturity. I'm glad to be a part of it.

[twyrch]

thegrimmsleeper said:

Twyrch, you're a descendant of Edwards? That's amazing. I still remember learning about his famous sermon, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God and how utterly horrified his parishioners were that day...

Yep! Check out my website. All the good details are in there... You'll have to go close to the end to find the Jonathan Edwards Stuff. I think it's in either Appendix I or II.

Anyway, now I'm the one on the soapbox. But I like this discussion, and I commend everyone for being so respectful. More often than not these kinds of things degenerate into some kind of flame war. Kudos, it shows this community has wisdom and maturity. I'm glad to be a part of it.

That is one of the things I picked up on when I joined as well. The warm, friendly comfortable atmosphere and the tolerance of other viewpoints and opinions. This is a very nice place, indeed.

[dinadan]

There's no sense in being dogmatic; you never know, you might just be wrong sometime.

[twyrch]

dinadan said:

There's no sense in being dogmatic; you never know, you might just be wrong sometime.

Huh? Did I miss something?

[dinadan]

Sorry...I guess that did seem kind of cryptic. I just meant that it's no fun being in discussion groups that are "flame wars"--that's what I meant by dogmatic people.

[thegrimmsleeper]

That's quite true.

Although it's entirely possible to completely disagree with someone and tell them that, and still be open and respectful. It's just really hard to find people who can debate like that, so it's usually best to avoid it.

Kind of sad, since there's lots of insight to be gained through intelligent debate and discussion. (I for one would loved to have sat in with the druids during some of the conversations Succat recounts in "Patrick".)

[dinadan]

Indeed...to sit and talk philosophy with the druids would have been great; I imagine a similar experience would be dinner with Socrates, or an afternoon stroll with Kierkegaard. That's one of the great things about philosophy--it's all debate and discussion--not that you don't have disagreements, like you said, but even in disagreeing you learn something.

[twyrch]

dinadan said:

Indeed...to sit and talk philosophy with the druids would have been great; I imagine a similar experience would be dinner with Socrates, or an afternoon stroll with Kierkegaard. That's one of the great things about philosophy--it's all debate and discussion--not that you don't have disagreements, like you said, but even in disagreeing you learn something.

I did a philosophy paper on The Dream Experience. I came up with, what I feel, is a very solid philosophy about the purpose of dreams and how the mind operates during the dreaming time.

I can talk about it more if anyone is interested in discussing it.

[thegrimmsleeper]

I'd love to hear about that.

[nicked]

Riothamus said:

For myself, I'm what is called a Calvinist, which is basically someone who believes God's in charge--period. (Calvinism, for anyone to whom the term is Greek, is a branch of Reformed Christianity--Christianity having its roots in the Reformation. Protestant, and all that.) My salvation lies in nothing I do, but in God's free Grace. Et cetera. And yes, His claim is an exclusive one.
I read Lawhead primarily because I am interested in the religious imagination. To see little theological tidbits in, for instance, the Pendragon books, helps me deepen my own understanding of how belief relates to the world. I may agree or disagree with the way Lawhead states it, but to see the idea itself in some sort of context is invaluable. (And there's more in there than you would think--even a phrase like "Heaven willing" is packed with meaning.)



Distrust of organization? But you're right--as far as I can see--in that he is very basic in the stated message. But there are lots of undercurrents and sub-themes that you miss out on if you're not looking deep enough.


Correct. From the Q&A:


[Incidentally, there's another reason I read Lawhead--he's a great writer! ;D ]

Was that religon started by John Calvin, the pre-destination guy

[Taliesin]

"Was that religon started by John Calvin, the pre-destination guy "

yep.