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Post by da5id on Aug 9, 2007 22:29:39 GMT -5
Hi all. This is my first post on the forum here. I've been reading Mr Lawheads books for the past few months. I really enjoyed his Pendragon Cycle and the Song of Albion cycle. However, I've just read The Iron Lance and am just beginning The Black Rood, and I'm not really sure where h'es coming from as far as Christianity is concerned. I guess I'm talking about this Cele De group. I've looked it up on the net HERE and it's a bit worrying. It says stuff like - Spiritual Guide? That sounds a little bit New Age-y to me. I don't think I'm comfortable with this kind of 'druidic' Christianity. I don't mind druid stuff so much in fiction, but I'm not really sure what kind of message Stephen is trying to send, or whether he favours this kind of Christianity. It may be confusing to some...
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Post by Child of Immanuel on Aug 10, 2007 9:13:11 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum!
I don't know if Ceile De Christianity was always like that; at least, Lawhead doesn't paint them that way. You're right that the modern version seems to have lost the way.
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Post by Dred on Aug 10, 2007 10:09:22 GMT -5
The modern version is a far cry from what Lawhead presents in the books. I think he based his on more historical accounts rather than the way things are now.
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Post by Paladin on Aug 10, 2007 12:51:39 GMT -5
My impression from reading those books (and thanks for starting this thread, da5id) was that the Cele De were a lot like modern Protestantism in their doctrine. Whatever they've become today, I don't know, been meaning to research the group since I read SRL's writings on them.
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Post by Child of Immanuel on Aug 11, 2007 10:16:48 GMT -5
The one thing I don't like about the Cele De in some of Lawhead's books (Patrick mostly) is that druidry is practiced along with Christianity. Smacks of witchcraft to me.
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Post by da5id on Aug 11, 2007 15:46:26 GMT -5
Child, yes I get that impression as well. That bit in Iron Lance when Emlyn and Murdo are trying not to be seen so Emlyn draws a mystic circle in the dirt to make themselves invisible, and when they don't need it anymore he has to rub part of the circle away before they can step out... Praying to God for help is one thing but drawing a circle on the ground seems a bit druidic.
Ok, I don't mind druid stuff in books as long as it's not supposed to be CHristian.
And I think Emlyn says somewhere that the Cele De are the only ones practicing "true" Christianity (the "path" I think he calls it) and infers that all the other churches aren't really following this true path. There were a few things like that, that makes me stop and go, "hmmmm".
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Post by Paladin on Aug 11, 2007 23:57:51 GMT -5
Good point... perhaps a more learned reader or Mr. Lawhead himself can point us in the direction of educational material on this topic.
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Post by twyrch on Aug 17, 2007 5:55:47 GMT -5
Just to set the record straight here... Druidry is not a religion... it is a spiritual path. I am a Christian-Druid and unless you all think I am a hethen, devil-worshipper, you may want to re-evaluate your stance on this.
Druidry is open to all religions because it is free of dogma, predudice and intolerance (unlike the majority of Christians today). I think SRL is trying to get a point across... that the ancient druids may have had pagan roots, but many of their ideas and ideals parrallel that of Christ's teachings.
Ghandi once said, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."
What kind of Christians are we if we denegrate and demonize those who believe differently than we do? Aren't we to show the love of Christ in all things? Is God simply an overlord who watches from above or can his essence be found in nature and in the world around us?
Seeking a spiritual connection to nature does not mean you worship nature. It merely means you have found a connection with God's creation. For me, becoming a druid has been a very rewarding experience and the more I learn, the closer I draw to God, through nature.
As for the spirit guides, they are animals who take different forms based on the person, need and circumstances of the vision quest. You can call it "New Age" if you want, but the fact is that you are simply entering into a meditative state to find answers within yourself that for whatever reason have been hidden from you. To the non-iniate, this may sound strange, but really what is the difference between a spirit guide and Jiminy Cricket? Both are an animal manifestation of your own conscience.
I would encourage all of you to investigate SRL's writings a little closer and you will see ties to Druidry in almost all of his books.... Patrick, The King Ravin Trilogy, The Song of Albion, The Pendragon Cycle.... I believe SRL has learned a great deal about Druidry and is incorporating his new-found knowledge into his writings to help others realize that Druidry isn't some satanic cult to be avoided, but a spiritual path to be studied with discernment.
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Post by twyrch on Aug 17, 2007 6:29:47 GMT -5
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Post by Child of Immanuel on Aug 17, 2007 7:34:23 GMT -5
You seem very defensive about this, Jer, and I hope I wasn't unnecessarily offensive to you. About what you said--I have no problem with worshiping God through nature, nor would I have had a problem with evangelizing druids through their points of similarity with the gospel. I do have a problem with meditation and with spirit guide animals. Can you show me where such practices are encouraged in the Bible?
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Post by twyrch on Aug 17, 2007 8:30:21 GMT -5
Sorry, CoI, if I seem a little defensive about this, but some of the comments in this thread really struck a cord with me. I've found that many people who turn to other religions do so because of Christians. To quote Brennan Manning, "The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable." Now, I have participated in meditation techniques and there is nothing dangerous about it at all. It's a way of finding peace within yourself... of calming your spirit and listening to the voice of wisdom inside you... For me, this is when I can hear God talking me the most clearly. I believe the Bible supports meditation, although not by that name. "Be still, and know that I am God" - Psalm 46:10... Be Still... what does that mean? Well, I could do a complete exegesis on this topic, but to me it mean to quiet my heart and listen for God's leading. One of the best ways I've found to quiet my heart is through meditation. Even the term "quiet your heart" is used by pastors during communion when they ask people to "bow their heads and quiet their hearts as they pray". Jesus, in the garden, spent 3 hours in intense prayer. The Bible doesn't say exactly what he was doing, besides praying, but don't you think he would have been quieting his own heart and seeking God's will? Even the few words of his prayer tell us that much. Meditation has been made into a taboo word by Mainstream Christianity, but I believe it is an important part of our life in drawing closer to God. As far as spirit guides go, like I said, they are representations of our own psyche to help us understand things which are hidden from us or things we are hiding from ourselves. John 16:13 "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come." Has anyone see the spirit of truth? Is that a physical being? Or is this the Holy Spirit? If so, how do you talk to the Holy Spirit? What form does he take? Who are we to say that some other culture or religion's way of communing with the Holy Spirit is better or worse than our own? Personally, I don't see the problem with it, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the subject. As the resident druid here, I just wanted to throw in my 2-cents.
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Post by Child of Immanuel on Aug 17, 2007 15:14:46 GMT -5
I'm sorry if I sounded judgmental at first. Maybe you could explain to me a little more about meditation. From the information I have at the moment, I don't like the sound of it, but I would appreciate more information.
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Post by DanTheMan on Aug 17, 2007 20:46:20 GMT -5
I don't know too much about meditation but I don't have a problem with it provided one's thoughts are centered on God. I don't see any need for animal guides as we can have such a close relationship with Jesus Christ, our brother. Meditation should be filled with prayer and finding peace. I also don't know what it's like being a druid. I like some things about how Lawhead write druids as seeking truth and seeking the Christ. I can appreciate that. I don't care for some of the "magic" things like drawing circles of protection and stuff. Visions might be ok, I don't know. I tend to think that God speaks to us in different ways and who am I to say that God can't give people visions. Oh, and I don't have a problem with appreciated nature. No, it shouldn't be worshiped. And it isn't a way to God. But God did create it and it is beautiful.
I may not agree with some things that Lawhead writes, but he sure does write a good story!
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Post by twyrch on Aug 19, 2007 6:51:39 GMT -5
DanTheMan, I think I would agree with most of what you said regarding meditation. God works in many wonderful and strange ways, and if meditation and spirit guides is the only way for him to communicate his will to some people, in a way they will understand and accept, then who are we to tell God he's doing it wrong? LOL! You're also right that Lawhead writes about Druids seeking truth. Here is a short excerpt on Druid Ethics from OBOD's Website. When I first found OBOD, I realized that I had no quarrels with any of their ethics or ideals. Druid Ethics and Beliefs
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Post by twyrch on Aug 19, 2007 7:07:23 GMT -5
I'm sorry if I sounded judgmental at first. Maybe you could explain to me a little more about meditation. From the information I have at the moment, I don't like the sound of it, but I would appreciate more information. No worries, CoI. I wasn't offended or anything. I just wanted to set the record straight and, if possible, clear up the misconceptions about druids and Druidry. Now, a meditation can take many forms... intense prayer is a meditation. Druids use a technique called a Light Body Exercise where you calm your spirit, quiet your heart and imagine your body bathed in white light. For me, this white light is God's peace and love. It fills me, cleanses me, and removes the worry, stress, anger and pain I have in my life. I never shared this with anyone but the mods here, but the first half of this year was VERY stressful. My grandma died on Christmas Eve, we lost our baby in January, my dad had a psychotic break in February and my great-uncle died from a heart attack. In march, Dawn's uncle died of cancer and my great-uncle's lung collapsed, causing him to die the day we burried her uncle. My grandpa died in May and my company tried to get me fired for taking too much time for funerals, even though I used vacation and bereavement. The LBE came in very helpful in calming me and giving me peace. I would have been a nervous wreck if I hadn't found a way to commune with God and receive his peace in such a close and personal way. I hope that answers some of your questions regarding meditation.
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