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Post by Child of Immanuel on Apr 25, 2005 20:19:13 GMT -5
Works for me. ;D
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Post by DanTheMan on Oct 19, 2005 21:37:11 GMT -5
So, I remain a little confused. I'm not really up on all the celtic lore much outside Lawhead. Bear with me here. Merlin, who was Taliesin's and Charis' son, could live forever, right? Charis isn't immortal but does live a long time. (Correct me when I'm wrong here.) But Taliesin. What IS he? Was he immortal? Was he from the Otherworld? Or are we just supposed to not know?
(Nice thread here. Not too many of these conversations anymore.)
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Post by dgan on Oct 21, 2005 2:37:53 GMT -5
Someone I'm sure will go into the non-Lawhead references of Taliesin. As for SRL, Charis was Atlantean, which simply means she would live a long freakin' time compared to the rest of the world. Since Merlin is her son, it is obvious at least some portion of that was hereditary. Taliesin's origin is in question, at best, but his life expectancy is completely unknown.
I'm not sure it is accurate to say Merlin would live forever - simply a very long time. Perhaps solely because of his Atlantean heritage or maybe because of his tie to the land of Britain. Maybe he couldn't die as long as the land of Britain needed him. Of course, since we don't know Taliesin's origin (at least in SRL context), there could be some type of "eternal" paternal effect on Merlin. But according to the book Avalon, he did age over those 2,000 years, so I do not believe he would live forever.
At least that's my take on it.
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Post by Gwalchmai on Nov 1, 2005 13:12:22 GMT -5
Thats pretty well my take on it as well. However I would like to take it one step further. The entire Pendragon Cycle (in my opinion) is a very extensive and thorough collaberation of the MANY variations of the arthurian romance. It grapples the hundreds of basic concepts that various individual legands try to examplify in their tellings. So as such, I'm not sure that references should be decided on strict numbers on how many years old Merlin is. Instead he comes out of this, into the world the very Soul of Britain. And like many things in this world, the soul may only leave till the body has perished so as long as a Britain stands, so shall Merlin live. At least thats my opinion. There you are, a much long winded version of "Maybe he couldn't die as long as the land of Britain needed him"  |
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Post by dgan on Nov 3, 2005 7:19:25 GMT -5
I completely agree. Although, as one that has practically no research or experience with other Arthurian works outside of SRL, I can attest that SRL's version and description of events can stand on their own two feet, so to speak. I think that makes it so unique - it is woven in common lore which can intrigue the mind of an Arthurian "historian." Yet, it is detailed enough within its own story that it is not necessary to be familiar with other accounts. I'm not sure if that makes any sense. I think one thing that might not be comprehendable to the casual reader is the use of "songs". The stories and songs told by the bards in many of the books often seem to have little relavance to me within the context of the story. Of course, poetry was my worst subject, so the parable-esque meaning probably just escapes my puny mind.  |
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Post by dinadan on Nov 4, 2005 0:06:50 GMT -5
I'm not sure if that makes any sense. I think one thing that might not be comprehendable to the casual reader is the use of "songs". The stories and songs told by the bards in many of the books often seem to have little relavance to me within the context of the story. Of course, poetry was my worst subject, so the parable-esque meaning probably just escapes my puny mind. Umm...the stories told by the bards in the tales (both in SoA and in the Pendragon Cycle) always parallel or foreshadow the action of what is happening in the main story. They're vital bits of the overall tale, because the savvy reader picks up the meaning even if the characters do not. |
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Post by dgan on Nov 5, 2005 2:45:25 GMT -5
<--- apparently, not a savvy reader...lol I know there is a meaning/correlation in there somewhere, but half the time I'm not able to pick it out. Someday, I'll go through them all and ask you what they mean.  |
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Post by DanTheMan on Nov 5, 2005 18:12:08 GMT -5
In Avalon, Merlin appears older - gray hair and all that. Then there's Rhys who looks like a young man. Why is that?
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Post by dinadan on Nov 8, 2005 14:55:04 GMT -5
Well, Rhys (like James/Arthur) has been given a second life (re-incarnation! oh no! start the fundamentalist flames!). Merlin, however, has not died since the events in the Pendragon Cycle.
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Post by DanTheMan on Nov 8, 2005 15:31:18 GMT -5
I don't remember Rhys dying, but I could be forgetting. I recently read Arthur and I'm reading Avalon now, but it's been a while since reading Pendragon and Grail. Where does he die? I thought I remembered he survived the whole Grail/Morgaws thing.
And I didn't take James for a reincarnation of Arthur, although it does seem like that somewhat. In fact, James doesn't believe it and doesn't even want to call it a vision he has when he feels like he's experiencing Arthur's life or memories. I think it's some sort of divine link between the two. I don't want to go all fundalmentalist here (although maybe I am) but I just don't think it is reincarnation. It must be something else. Mustn't it?
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Post by Gwalchmai on Nov 8, 2005 16:39:13 GMT -5
Rhys dies of old age like Bedwyr and Bors at the end of Arthur. But what I always wondered is who was reincarnated? So Far I came up with Gwyen., Arthur, Cai, Rhys, Gwalcmai, and Bedwyr, sort of. Anyone get anyone else?
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Post by dinadan on Nov 8, 2005 17:45:33 GMT -5
I think Merlin pretty much says in Avalon that it's reincarnation--but the only reason it's allowed is because evil (in the guise of Morgian) prevented Arthur et all from doing what they were meant to do in this world--so they were allowed a second chance.
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Post by DanTheMan on Nov 8, 2005 21:28:43 GMT -5
"James has never set much store in reincarnation -- the endless return of soulds to bodies for the tedious expiation of sins committed in previous lives. The human sould was not a glass bottle to be relentlessly recycled time and time again. One chance was all anyone got -- that is what he believed. One chance, and one chance only, so you had to do your best, you had to make it count.
But if not reincarnation, then what?
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But it wasn't another life, James argued with himself, it was this one, this same life. This same life, only in another time.
He did not know how to explain it any better than to say that he felt as if awareness has awakened inside hime after a long, long sleep."
(pp 158-160, in my paperback edition)
Still don't buy the reincarnation thing. But I do buy that Rhys did of old age. It does say somehwere else in Avalon that Rhys is a common Welsh name, I think. So, just Merlin survived. He sure saw a lot of British history!
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Post by dinadan on Nov 8, 2005 21:54:35 GMT -5
That same life quote--in effect means that their lives "the near future" in which Avalon takes place were a continuation of their previous lives (although, in new bodies). Clearly, that's a form of reincarnation. Not the kind of endless cycling (without awareness, usually, of previous incarnations) that the first quote talks about.
I guess it comes down to what do you mean by reincarnation. It's clear that James, at least, possesses the memories of Arthur. If memory is a function of the soul, then it must be that the soul is the same.
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Post by DanTheMan on Feb 20, 2006 16:17:10 GMT -5
Well, I sure speak from inexperience. Not having been reincarnated, how can I really speak on this topic?  Argue all you want, I'm not going to call it reincarnation as people consider it these days. Not that it really matters. It's just a means by which the author uses to apply the old thoughts of honor and striving toward a higher purpose to our current time period. We as a generation sure lack these morals today, and it would be nice if such a man as Arthur would return once in a while to remind us of it. |
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Argue all you want, I'm not going to call it reincarnation as people consider it these days. Not that it really matters. It's just a means by which the author uses to apply the old thoughts of honor and striving toward a higher purpose to our current time period. We as a generation sure lack these morals today, and it would be nice if such a man as Arthur would return once in a while to remind us of it.