Pendragon Cycle - conflicting variations?

[dinadan]

Riothamus said:

Ah, yes, the wonders of the Internet.

Incidentally, one huge loose end that kind of bugged me in Avalon was the Lia Fail subplot. [Spoilers]

It's what Moira's after, in all her dives to Llyoness, but it's never addressed, never spoken of, by Merlin or his cohorts. Or did I miss something? [/Spoilers]

It does seem like Merlin would have wanted to get it first--but then, maybe he was just waiting for Llyonese to rise from the waves and make it easier. Of course, with Moira (which, incidentally, is Greek for Fate) dead, I suppose that the urge to get it under control is less. Who knows? With Merlin knocking around as Embries for the last 1600-1700 years, you'd think that he might've gotten around to getting ahold of the Stone of Destiny.

[Riothamus]

True. The irritating thing about this particular loose end is that it could be addressed in a very simple exchange :
"Well, young prince, now that Moira is dead and gone back to the [insert Celtic figure of speech] we can rest easy."
"But what about the Lia Fail?"
"It has awaited your coming for centuries; surly it can wait until Llyoness is wholly risen. These are Ug boots, my king, and I have no desire to get them wet...."
And as they gazed out over Llyoness...

et cetera.

[dgan]

"You know, I've been to Llyonesse. I couldn't wait. I wanted to see it before it was crawling with tourists."

"There's nothing there for you anymore."

Based on this exchange, I had always assumed that Merlin had meant that the Lia Fail had lost its power. Since reading your question, though, I have thought about this more deeply than before and I must answer your question with a question.

Do you recall Merlin ever knowing of, much less trying to retrieve the Lia Fail? The only encounter I can think of was when he walks in on Annubi in the Llyonesse tower and he mentions seeing on odd looking stone. That is the only time Merlin mentions it. Is it quite possible he knows nothing of the stone's existance or power?

Speaking of, what exactly is the power Morgian is able to extract from the stone? Annubi basically used it as a crystal ball bought from the magic store down the street. Morgian never does say what power she gains from the stone.

[Gwalchmai]

Well quickly back to the original topic for just a second:

(1) Moria mentions in her conversation with Merlin I believe, on how amazing it was that not only did Arthur come back, but her as well. So she came back with the people like Gwalchmai, Rhys, Cai, and Arthur. So I guess her master sent her back to continue the age old battle.

(2) In Anerin's black book, he says that it was decided that the... bah I dont know the spelling off the top of my head so I'll spell it how I remember it... round tonda? Anyways, their secret burial place would become the resting place for the Grail. They already know where it is, its just a matter of going to get it and to keep it safe. You'll note that they dont go further on about them going out to quest for it.

And the thing thats always bugged me, is when Gwalchavad starts his Grail book, he says he was inspired by Anerin to write it. However, we know he dies at the final battle so it wasn't after everyone was gone. He says Anerin was wise in the ways of things but in his version, seems very adimant that he was of little consequnce of poor skill when he joined Arthurs Company. In truth we see little of what he has done till the last few monthes of Arthur's reign. So whats the deallio? Is Galahad taking advice from a guy that pours his mead?

[dgan]

I wish I had the books in front of me. I know for a fact Aneirin was born the same year as the Battle at Baedun Hill. I know for a fact he was 13 years old when he joined Arthur, and was probably about that age when Gwalchavad died.

I will have to go back and check if Gwalchavad really says that Aneirin inspired him, but if so, that is a puzzler. He would have had to have written the Grail some time between the end of the plague and the time when Arthur left to save Rome. That would give him very little time to know Aneirin, much less be inspired by a seemingly wide-eyed teenager who did nothing but ask questions.

One thing I must say about all the Pendragon books, however. Charis is the only one that states WHEN she is writing. (While in mandatory bedrest, pregnant with Merlin.) Aneirin does say he is old, so we know he was yet living. Who is to say the other authors, including Merlin, wrote their stories while alive on earth? We make that assumption because we have a physical book in our hands, but perhaps these are works delivered by or through Merlin, or some other supernatural revelation. Just a thought.

[calixar]

Oh, great... you've given me the idea to re-read the entire series, making a timeline of events... thanks. ;D

[dgan]

Dinadan actually broke it down chronologically earlier in this thread. I think he may have been a bit off, though...something doesn't sound right. I have it written down somewhere, so I'll find it and confirm the actual chronlogical order for you.

I actually enjoy reading the series chronologically, much better than the original way SRL released it. That goes for all of you - if you've never read this cycle chronologically, you HAVE to. Now, if I could only find where I wrote that down.....

[calixar]

No, Dinadan's timeline was right as far as I see...

I mean an actual timeline of events, though... detailed.

[dgan]

Yeah, you're right. It's confusing, but he did have it right.

Good luck with the timeline - SRL is so hazy with his time measurement, I don't know how easy that will be. Often times, the only thing you have to go by are the various genealogies, and everyone has different life expectencies.

I would be very interested in what you come up with, though. I'm not that motivated. I tried to keep a list of characters, developing a map of association, but gave up on that before I was halfway through Taliesin. lol

[dinadan]

The place to start with a chronology would probably be with real historical documents where you could place some key events. I'd say the revolt of Maximius (Macsen Wledig) in Britain in 383 the birth of Aneirin (c.AD 541) would be good places to start.

[angelika]

In response to the issues you have all presented here, here are my thoughts...
First you should know I found Lawhead's Avalon first and therefore I read that one first...I followed that up by then seeking out his original Pendragon Cycle and read those - though not in the chronology suggested because I had not yet found this website. In the meantime I have also read a non-fiction book pulling together historical facts and conjectures in regards to the "real" Arthur - that author did seem to believe that any person named Arthur or the person that Arthur was based on did live during the late fifth century and died sometime in the early sixth century. I don't know for sure if this holds with Lawhead's details but alas I am babbling...
On to the topic at hand!

First, I do believe that Moira is a reborn version of Morgian - and if Arthur, Cai, and Rhys could all have their spirits or souls return in the flesh of another then there is no reason why Morgian's could not. Furthermore, much noise is made in many of the books as to the fact that Morgian is an enchantress and a weaver of lies and illusions - if this so then there is no question that the Emrys may not know her at first sight. Remember if you will that she fooled him once before only to have Pelleas resist her carefully woven web when they sojourned in present day France, I believe it was, searching for a Fair Folk settlement.
So the fact that Moira is Morgian (reborn) and can also shift her form or draw the veil over many eyes is no surprise.

Now on the other hand, I just finished reading Grail recently (first time) and am currently re-reading the ending of Arthur so the comment from Bedwyr about the grail also distressed me, for surely they know who has it based on the ending of Grail. That had even bothered me before I read Grail because Myrrdin had been heal with it through Avallach. There is a chance, I suppose, that what Bedwyr is referring to is more of a spiritual quest - perhaps he is indicating that they need to find it in themselves first before they recieve it from Avallach's hands.

As to Aneirin's age at the time of Gwalchavad's death - he was indeed 13 when he came to Arthur's service however following Morgian's death there are seven years of peace before Arthur is crowned Emeror of the West. Not to mention the fact that there are few years that pass through his telling of parts of the tale proceeding the crowning. Eight or nine years is long enough to have had him inspire Gwalchavad to pen his tale.

As for the Lia Fail - I don't remember Avalon as clearly because it has been a while since I read it so I don't remember for sure what that was all about. But I am going to reread it soon!

Laslty, as too the disappearance and reappearance of Llenlleawg - that to bugs me a bit...I wish that it had been more fully explained. Just mentioning the fact that he could eventually be restored to service at the end of Grail was not quite enough for me.

[Riothamus]

You know, I've been toying with the idea that Grail is actually a fabrication and not part of the "canon" at all--in fact, the work of monks many hundred of years after the actual events. That would certainly explain the inconsistancies, as well as the radical difference in mood. (To me, it feels more "traditionally" Arthurian.)







Tongue in cheek, of course. ;D

[dgan]

Angelika said:

As to Aneirin's age at the time of Gwalchavad's death - he was indeed 13 when he came to Arthur's service however following Morgian's death there are seven years of peace before Arthur is crowned Emeror of the West. Not to mention the fact that there are few years that pass through his telling of parts of the tale proceeding the crowning. Eight or nine years is long enough to have had him inspire Gwalchavad to pen his tale.

OK. I am not a scholar of Arthurian...stuff. I am only speaking in relation to the story the way Lawhead describes it, which may differ from other historical accounts. Now, I may be totally off here, so someone please clarify this for me.

My understanding was that Baedun Hill occurred, immediately followed by the "war" with the Boar which was over by winter. After that began the 7 years of peace. So - if Aneirin was born in the year of Baedun, the 7 years of peace would have been well over by the time he arrived in Arthur's service. The events he describes while in Arthur's service until Gwalchavad's death, as best I can tell, appear to all occur within one season. Therefore, I don't understand how people are concluding that Aneirin was with Gwalchavad for such a long period of time. Am I just a moron, or what?

[Gwalchmai]

Most people acredit Arthur's peace for lasting around 20 years. Now after Anerin join up, Lawhead tends to get vague with the time span between him joining and the rebellion. However, despite all this sapposed time, Anerin doesn't gain rank till the end of the reign of peace and even then I dont see him becoming so wise to be advising Arthur's warriors. Especially when you've got Emrys a mere skip hop and bounce away =P